Taking it too far and the ramifications

I'm sorry, I've read TeeZy's posts and your posts and the only one I see coming off as a pretentious asshole is you? I guess I'm missing some inside joke or something? XD

 

Right so before I start off, I wasn't part of "The 1/11 group" as I wasn't staff and didn't spend very much time in the community. However I heard about what was going on, as I am friends with many of the members of this "group" and joined the discord that was made. Now, I do not claim to know all of the information regarding the "1/11 event" or the current ban extensions.

With that being said, I'm going to go ahead and give my opinions on the current situation. I will be splitting this up into 3 posts, one replying to Highwon and Salisian, one replying to Robokiller and one with a Summary.

PLEASE NOTE: The reply to Robokiller has missing information from his quotes. This is not to sabotage information or to misguide, the character limit forced me to cut redundancies out. If you would like to read his full messages, you can do so here and here.

Spoiler: Highwon

Interesting, so simply because they were associated means that they are automatically guilty. I can see where you are coming from, as Guilt by Association is a legitimate crime. However, in this incident I believe it is absolutely ridiculous. I believe the way you decide whether or not someone is "associated" is incorrect. Instead of them being associated with them while they were plotting, conspiring or otherwise making plans/acting with/on malicious intent, you are basing it off...well I'm not sure really. You see, many of the people who are associated with the "1/11 group" aswell as Wompzilla and GunAndBomb are not banned. Whereas people who have since not been in contact with them since that event, are banned.

My above statement holds true here aswell, you're way of determining who is "associated" is completely skewed in my opinion. You said yourself that the players who were banned may or may not actually have any direct involvement, so why were they banned? In your own words, because they were associated. However I, tho not associated with GunAndBomb or Womzilla in any way, am associated with many of the other people who were banned. I was not part of this e-mail attack, nor did I know anything of it until today when I got home from work. However who is to say that I was or wasn't? There is no way to prove I was associated or was not, as is the case with many of the banned players.

Spoiler: Salisian

Conspiracy to commit is a legitimate reason in the legal system because the legal system is much more profound and expanded then this community. However even in the legal system there are systems in place to prove when someone is conspiring with another.

For example: "It is important to note that courts have found that mere presence or association with those committing a crime doesn't, by itself, make someone a co-conspirator unless there are other factors that collectively point to an implicit agreement." Now, in this case, from what I have gathered from Highwon and Robokiller's posts, no evidence to prove that these persons were conspiring to commit said crime.

Another thing to take note of is intent. "Not only does one other individual in the conspiracy need to intend to agree, all parties must intend to achieve the outcome." Now, as stated above there is no evidence(at least that has been displayed) that the players banned outside of Gun and Womp had any intention of harassing, attacking or directing any malicious behavior at the server or Highwon himself.

The conspiracy you are speaking of, which is the "1/11 event", happened 3 months ago. Now obviously, even in the court of law, that is not outside of the Statutes of Limitation. However, that "case" had already been dealt with and closed, and although it may in the future(or in this case present) effect the outcome of another case based on history. It does not, in fact, make the reasoning for banning these players justifiable.

You go on about things like guilt and friendships and using people because of these emotions and emotional ties. I disagree with this to an extent, as there is no proof of people manipulating(to my knowledge) other players into malicious or harmful action in this scenario. Just because two people are friends, does not in fact, make them conspiritors. Suspects? Perhaps. For example, you could consider me a suspect due to the fact that I have ties with multiple of the banned players. However I'm not banned. Why? Well to be frank, I'm not sure. I haven't exactly gone out of my way to be toxic, nor have I done anything that, in my opinion, warrants a ban. However from my point of view, neither did Anna or Sinz. I pop up on occasions and be "edgy" and make comments that some people disagree with, but that's part of a community. If everyone were to get along perfectly things would get stale, boring and eventually things would fall apart. However thankfully, we don't have that. People disagree, it fuels discussion, that discussion leads to change, which leads to more disagreements and more discussion. Sometimes, those disagreements go to far, and one party takes it to the extreme. Many see the "1/11 event' in this regard. Personally, I think that both parties went too far in some regards. I apologize for rambling.

Essentially what I'm saying is, simply because there is a relationship between two or more players does not make them guilty of a crime. From what I can see, there is no connection between the attackers, GunAndBomb and Womp, and the "associated" players such as Anna and Sinz.

 

Spoiler: Robokiller

 

EDIT: Summary was shit, don't have enough energy to make a proper one. Read the full post nerd.

 

Spoiler: words

Im not sure why people were not banned right away. I wasn't apart of that decision and I wasn't told about the decision. I dont need to know about that decision to make my current decision on the matter. I can only assume it was out of leniency.

The others who were banned may not have had any role in what happened with the emails today. Im not saying they did, but as of now I can say they didnt. So why were they banned? You could consider this ban wave a long time coming especially for users like Ryan, Clutch, and Mason. They were extremely belligerent whenever they were in shoutbox so much so one of them was permanently banned from shoutbox and the other two punished and warned countless times for their continued persistence of being a thorn in everyone's side by borderline breaking the rules and insulting people.

Defining them as people who purposefully break the rules, borderline break the rules, have bad intentions for the community, and are just looking for trouble. Sinz and Anna don't fit that description for me. That's my view and only my view because I dont know what they did to get themselves associated in the first place other than be in the center of the 1/11 events.

Not speaking for Sinz and Anna. I would argue everyone outside of them were extremely toxic and deserved the ban. I've dealt with them enough in the MC servers, SB, and forums to argue for this ban on them. So with that in mind, and their actions during 1/11 it was a very sound decision in my mind to make.

Ryan, Clutch, and Steve Mason as I mentioned earlier constantly broke the rules of the forums in the shoutbox showing nothing but ill intentions when using the shoutbox and they're directly related to the 1/11 group so they were grouped with the COI since all they've done is cause trouble for the community since 1/11. https://www.seriousgmod.com/threads/report-against-robkiller.38727/ is an example of Ryan's malicious intentions that got himself a perma SB ban. Clutch was apart of this to a lesser extent, more of a lackey and willingly did his duties to help out Ryan and Steve. So what about Steve? He's got two harassment bans in SB, also participated in Ryan's shenanigans, and was just as bad as Ryan at times. Why wasn't he punished as badly as Ryan? Ryan went full out to get banned while Steve likes to play it more safe. Also for some more points on Ryan and Clutch. Both were extremely toxic in Minecraft. Ryan would always have an inappropriate minecraft skin (Osama Bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Benito Mussolini) as well as harass users. Clutch also harassed users too whether verbally or by spawnkilling. You already are aware about Rogers so I wont get into him. As for the proof about Sinz and Anna, that's not my area to speak.

I gave you my reasoning above that assisted in the decision against Clutch, Ryan, and Steve. Along with their actions on 1/11 it was again a ban that was coming sooner or later. They're strongly associated with Womp and Gun as well so that doesn't help their case. What makes them different than the daily edgy user? They have a lot of knowledge they can abuse and have abused and the gall to cause mayhem for anyone who doesn't support their cause.

This leniency they were given was on 1/11. Why? Can't say. I wasn't there for any type of decision then. Now, after the event they were given many chances to improve their attitude whether it's a warning, ban, what have you. As a former staff member you're aware that we are not one to ban people cold heartedly we want people to improve upon their mistakes, but when people have nothing but ill intentions for the community then they won't care about what happens to them and are just doing it to cause problems they'll more than likely get harshly punished, and they did. I gave you my reasoning with the 3 above, Rogers you know, won't speak for Sinz and Anna.

Now with Sinz and Anna there's a select few who know what happened with them. I know only so much as to say "it was behind the scenes" and the fact I was not told as of now means it was an extremely private and personal manner. Now why do I defend this ban, but not them? I cannot make an informed decision on them. An informed decision made on them was by those who know what happened. These people were either directly involved or caught in the crossfire and happened to learn what they did. Why I wasn't told is only because it was extremely personal and private, I'll assume. Should I know so I have a chance to put my word in? I believe it was best for me to not say anything because of how biased I am and because of how touchy the subject matter could be. Why spread that type of information to more sources that'll allow for people to use it? I'm not saying I would use whatever touchy info for any other reason for the ban, but it's a general statement for cutting off the source and stopping an infestation. There's people who were much more qualified to make that decision, and they did.

 

I agree that people should not be toxic and ruining other people's fun. However, from reading the post, I get the inkling that running the servers is like a hobby to you. I understand that everyone is entitled to their personal life, but the post makes me feel like you only run the servers for our benefit. I do not know the economics of the server, however from our perspective it seems as if you are making a decent amount of money. As a result, it irritates me when you say you are using up your "personal time" to deal with this (if you are making money on a regular basis, this is a job, not a hobby). I understand that it is frusturating for you to have to deal with it (I wouldn't want to either), but you gotta take the good with the bad (especially when making money). You cannot just sit around and expect the staff team to run the servers; you need to be helping them out and getting a feel for the community, not just keeping them "afloat". This way you can get a better feel for what is needed on the servers and not just take the advice from the leads. While there may be an endless supply of people wanting to be staff, however, if you want a good, core staff team, you need to take opinions from all levels of the hierarchy and get to know your staff team. When I was a mod, I only talked to you twice through game chat. Instead of being mysterious and intimidating, you guys should talk to the community so that people can bring up their concerns without having to resort to what transpired a few months ago and the effects of it.

I could be wrong, I probably am (what do I know.. im just a retired staff member ), and this is probably going to bite me in the behind when I apply for staff this coming summer; but these are my thoughts and I just had to get it off of my chest.

 

The actions that have taken place since January have caused many divides.
Not just amongst the staff team. But the community as a whole. The vocal minority does not speak for the silent majority.

The recent meme, joke, attack, what ever its intent may have been, has certainly crossed a line far beyond trolling, toxicity and angst.
All those who have been banned were and have been directly involved in a wide span toxicity. From mild public acts to trolling to vulgar harassment. Some of you have seen here on the forums, some stated by others here. And in private avenues people talk.

The Banned users are strongly familiar and aware how much leniency has been given since January.
Inciting arguments, going on the server to troll, bullying people in sb, trying to stir the pot in private after things started to settle, targeting people, making malicious statements to staff, fear mongering in several ways.
So much more petty things that add up. Which can and has lead to major concerns administration has to settle just among the staff team. This has happened several times, But once is more than enough.

You ask about those that seem to have little to no involvement recently, this may be true, forum and server wise. But all have instigated or been a direct cause of most of the recent issues.
No one was banned solely off of knowing these people or being friendly. As robo has stated, This was the last straw, the one that broke the camels back.
Malicious actions and intent to divide the community or to harm it even seemingly will not be tolerated.
Leniency will always be on the table but when it tries to widen a healing fissure, it can not and will not be condoned

All stemming from 1 main group. All from 1 stressful night and the days coming after.
Which a lot of leniency was given then and since. More than it has ever before for something so serious.
People were given multiple chances to show they care, as they said they did countless times. Only to turn around later that night or the next day.
They talked about their actions and their friends and knew what they were doing.
Not only were people warned several times by staff, but as well as their own friends. Asking them to drop it.

Personally I'm disappointed at every turn, every morning when I'm told what happened the night prior here on the forums, or on the server, or what so-so implied to suchandsuch. All because of a group.
This is all a conflict of interest to the community that we have not seen in a long time.

This ban is a consequence.
As your Lead Admin I take some fault in not handling this sooner and more clearly for those banned and associates.
In hindsight there are a few things I would do differently.

Conflict of interest bans have always been a hefty permanent ban.
Very few times has there been a length for these.

1 year seemed reasonable. Everyone who was involved with this, picking at the wound in some way, was going to be or has been issued a warning to stop the antagonism and instigation. Or 6 month Coi's would be issued at any instance of toxicity.
Unfortunately this is a case of the Snowball effect.

Spoiler: img

I hope this gives more insight from my perspective. And how these decisions were made.

 

What I don't get is why people insist on repeatedly poking a bear with a stick, with the singular intention to piss it off. What I also don't get is how many people are shocked or taken aback by the fallout that comes from it. I definitely don't think people should be getting zapped by association, but when this is a recurring theme and revolves around vetted members of the community, it amazes me how much outrage is generated. So we have this current scenario, where discourse has been the norm ( every time I'm around I see someone stirring up shit, anymore. ) At what point is it the responsibility of these people to grow up a bit and stop being malicious jerks for no real purpose other than directly disrupting a place where a slew of people, including friends of theirs, come to have fun and unwind? Honestly, from a few standpoints it defies logic. Still, bans should have been handed out to people who have been here every day or every other day stirring the pot, these things need to be targeted and made examples of.

 

3 months and this still hasn't settled down. Aside from Anna because of what she was going through at the time, nobody in the group deserves any sympathy.

When I opened up the forums that day and saw a bunch of demoted staff I naturally went to their discord to figure out what was going on. While I was on there I saw multiple people discussing mass donating and charging back to bankrupt the server. It was probably an empty threat or some kind of chant for people in that group, but when the same people who said that went on the forums saying they did nothing wrong or weren't part of the group you stop caring if any of them are banned.

I've seen a lot of people in this thread saying Sinz did nothing wrong. Remember this is a guy who said that Highwon permabanned a player for griefing his base in ARK. Whether this was a blatant lie or if Sinz actually believed that story you can't say you were acting in the best interest of the community while spreading a bad lie like that.

Publicly all of these people are going to say they had nothing to do with the group, but anyone would try to protect themselves if they're part of the group. Highwon's stance on trolls was already well known, so of course they wouldn't want to let anyone know that they were a part of it. Yes some people in the group may not have actively tried to harm the server, but if someone supports the people that do why should we let them stay here?

Seeing drama in the community pisses me off. If someone gets mad at Highwon/the leads that's fine, but actual retaliation is pointless. These people wanted to send a message that Highwon is a bad owner or something but the more and more they try the more you realize they're just a bunch of idiots overcome by mob mentality.

Even when I'm not active in the community, I still like to check the forums to see what's going on. I like seeing people have fun on the servers, have a good time in the shoutbox, and lounge around on teamspeak. I don't have it in me to ignore this like I should, but after seeing nearly every bit of drama this community's ever had, I'm tired of the same shit happening over and over. The only difference between this group and any other toxic group is that there were more current staff involved this time.

I'll admit I'm a bit less informed than most people from being less active, but I'm not gonna give any support to people acting against the community. Everyone who got banned was banned for a reason. I've been staff long enough to know that just because Highwon doesn't make a thread titled "these are the reasons for every COI ban" doesn't mean he bans people for no reason.

 

From personal experience of running other game server i do understand how you feel about this, just keep doing what you have to do, and drop your tolerance level slightly. I know you may think everyone deserves another chance but some people give up their right to another chance when their intentions are to harm something you've worked so hard for.
I know you've put a lot of time and effort into this community and its been worth it because its an amazing community, just do what you have to do to eradicate these "community harmers" I can assure you nobody here that cares about this community is going to think any less of you or disagree with your actions, we all have your back on this issue and any other issues to come.

 

Except some of the people banned were banned because of the actions of another person, with whom they had no control over. That is the problem here.

 

You need to stop, they weren't banned for the actions of another, they were banned for their own actions, the other person just hit Highwon's tipping point, get that? sweet move on stop demanding to know everything that goes on behind closed doors.

 

They weren't banned, then someone else did something and they were. And these sort of comments are sort of funny coming from you of all people, who was banned for excessive toxicity within the community not to far back.

 

I don't think you should antagonize others for disagreeing with you on this topic, nor shame them by bringing up their history :/

I understand how it looks, and I do agree with you (as evidenced by me questioning some bans previously in this thread) but I do sincerely doubt that they are just going to ban a bunch of people for the actions of a few members of some (presumably) incoherent group. That is to say, I trust that none of these bans just fell from the sky out of nowhere.

According to Highwon, his side showed good faith and leniency and gave multiple of the involved people a fair share of chances to turn a new leaf. But even Jesus only had so many cheeks to turn.

While from my perspective, some of these seem harsher than necessary, it was the administration's choice to do it like this, and I know scarcely enough to say they were wrong to do so. That doesn't mean they made the right call on everything here, but it also doesn't mean they were wrong to do what they've done.

In light of that, I have chosen to trust that they had a good reason for these punishments. That of course doesn't mean you have to accept it but...

TL;DR: Play nice.

 

You know nothing about my ban, take your foot out of your mouth.

 

About as much as you should know about why the others were banned, yeah. But, I dunno, we were just making assumptions on things so I thought I'd take a crack.

Edit: Just going to point out the hypocrisy of everyone here, including Butters. Only a handful of you know what actually happened, but you are all commenting like it is 100% justified.

 

lol you fucking stupid mate i bet you dont even know 100% what even happened but your trying to start a fight with butters, ayyyy lmao
basically gun thought it would be edgy if he told womp to spam highwons email that he got, they both had nothing to lose since they were already coi. higwon got hella angry (and i would too) so highwon banned all of them.
i dont believe in group consequences but that is highwon choice and he is not changing it

 

Sadly the same is true for you, unless you were in staff discord at the time you won't know exactly what happened.

 

not saying i did, im just calling it how i see it

 

Well you should be more careful, you were wrong:

Highwon asked his staff team if bans should be issued now or a final warning, and the staff team came to a conclusion of a ban to be issued, this wasn't a highwon decision, highwon consulted his staff team and they provided their verdict.