I talked about this in another topic, but I will state it again. I propose an amendment to the traitorous actions section. There are two rules I think should be revised. Having traitor weapons (silenced, knife, harpoon, tear gas, etc) Hiding traitor equipment (C4, decoy, radio) Revised into... Using traitor equipment (Anything that can be bought in the traitor's buy menu activated with +context_menu) Destroying bodies or discarding them to unreachable/traitorous "Traitor weapons" is actually a subset of "traitor equipment", so just saying "using traitor equipment" would consolidate those two rules into one statement that doesn't change anything about gameplay. The main addition is the bodies rule. Destroying a body by use of a flare gun(traitor equipment) is obviously a traitorous action, but that's not because it's the use of a flare gun. The purpose of the flare gun is to burn the bodies and get rid of the trail on the traitor, making it a weapon FOR the traitors. It's not that because it is in the context menu for traitors that it is a traitor weapon. It is because it is a traitor weapon that it is in the context menu for traitors. So, why is it that discarding a body off the back of terrortrain(unreachable) or into some abyss(unreachable except with death attached) which achieves the exact same effect not KOSable? It should be, and that's what I argue for in this topic. Concerns from some in the topic spoke of the logs not being able to show if someone hides a body or not and thus moderators are unable to superficially determine whether or not it was RDM and puts more work on them. However, after the inclusion of the rule, only traitors and those that wish to troll the innocents will carry on discarding bodies to out of reach locations. Yes, the logs won't show what someone does with a body, however they also don't show who damages the tester or health station, yet those are KOSable. Think about how many situations would cause an innocent to have a legitimate reason to destroy evidence, and if you can answer with more than "they want to troll" then I'll be surprised.
there is a big problem with that though 1#-say there is someone who is moved to spec for being afk on terror train, if he is id'd and the body has no value, throwing it off of the train wont effect anyone and being killed for it would be stupid. 2#- say you kill at t and id the body. you then throw it off because it has no value, someone cant tell if it has value or not, therefore, it would be off of suspicion. (also, this has been discussed before) http://www.seriousttt.com/threads/destroying-dna-evidence-a-broken-rule.11592/
I'm convinced you didn't read that thread you linked because I posted in it, so of course I would know that this area of interest has been discussed there. I have now made a suggestion in the right forum for better discussion because I am suggesting something different, so please take the time to actually read through it. #1 - While some bodies don't have value, that implies some DO. Do you agree that destroying a body with DNA that would point to a traitor, is traitorous? And as you've said in #2, you can't tell whether or not a body has value, so by adding this rule we can then be able to kill the traitors that do try to hide a body by throwing it off because they're too cheap to buy a flare gun. #2 - That body has soooo much value for yourself just then, why would you throw it off? Your DNA is on it which will prove your innocence. Please imagine how the gameplay would be if this change was implemented first before you start making silly remarks like "it would be off of suspicion". If this was in the game, then someone throwing ANY body off the cliff or where ever no one can reach it is traitorous, and then it would be just like an innocent breaking the traitor tester, aka people trolling the server.
Or you're killing people that are getting rid of bodies with no value. There should be no rule put in place that allows for people to assume someone did something traitorous. Identified bodies with no DNA have no value and it would not be traitorous to dump them somewhere. Like you said, "possible evidence," would imply that we just assume every body is evidence. Assumptions lead to suspicion which would be RDM if acted upon.
Hey there, Jsk! I'm going to tell you why this rule will not be revised or taken out. There is one reason and that reason is a good reason. Serious TTT's rules are all balanced in a way that is fun for the players and that pretty much all RDM is taken care of. By changing this rule, tons and tons of RDM would happen all purely off of suspicion. You see, if I saw someone playing with a body and ASSUMED it had DNA, and eventually shot him for putting it over the edge, that would be suspicion because I assumed that there was DNA on that body he dropped. Now, consider this. You are playing on terror train and are playing with a body, which we all know most people do , and someone shoots you for pushing the body off the edge, yet you had not done anything traitorous. The RDMer would then get away with RDM because logs cannot prove that he had RDM'd you. Now, this would make anyone furious and, to be honest, it makes me appreciate the rules we have now more. When thinking about rules and why you don't like them, try to think of the repercussions that it may have such as adding more RDM and, not only RDM, but RDM possibilities. Simply, plugging one hole up and causing 3 more. Anyways, this is my input. TL;DR: Serious TTT's rules are balanced in a way where it is fun and it covers pretty much all RDM scenarios. This would all be purely suspicion and would allow for more word vs word situations where moderators can't do anything, and eventually, flat lot problems.
Why do you assume discombobs are traitorous? Why are discombobs traitorous in ALL situations when I have not been hurt by the majority I experience? It is because in SOME situations they are outright deadly. Well just the same, destroying bodies should be traitorous in ALL situations because as an innocent witness watching from a distance, it's impossible to know if he's getting rid of DNA evidence or not. In some cases it IS traitorous, and you can't tell unless you were close enough to see the body for sure, and like discombobs, all situations of throwing bodies off should be perceived traitorous. I think the real question is why you guys don't want this server to be serious.
Discombobs have the ability to kill someone through fall damage and are very deadly on some maps, thus they are traitorous to throw. Killing off of this is the definition of killing off of suspicion. You cannot tell if there is no DNA or not if you haven't seen the body and so you are assuming that it has it, which is suspicion. As I stated before, the rules we have now are to keep the server well rounded on a base of seriousness and fun. I don't understand your point here. All the rules we have cover every aspect of RDM and changing or adding the body rule would create more RDM which we simply don't want. Once again, killing off of suspicion.
-1. There is no way in the logs for us to tell if a body has DNA or not so will cause endless amounts of loophole RDMing and trolling.
I stated that in the second sentence of what you quoted. Do you only skim what I say and thus not actually see what I'm saying? Because what I am trying to get at here is that in most cases of players throwing discombobs, it's NOT traitorous and wouldn't kill someone, but they have the possibility and thus ALL are deemed traitorous. If you witness a person throwing a body off the ledge that wouldn't be suspicion. If you see someone carrying a body near the edge, and you look away and turn back and see that he's not holding the body anymore, so you go to the cliff where he was and you see a body dropped down to the abyss, you don't remember the name of the body he was holding, so you're unsure if that was the right one......then THAT would be suspicion. Why do you think you can't have fun with this rule implemented? You can have fun messing with bodies as long as you don't throw it off the side. How hard is that to understand? Once the rule is in place, people will stop throwing them off(unless they're a traitor or want to be killed and start a death train) and just keep playing with them in reach. It would not create more RDM as long as unserious TROLLS do not throw bodies off after the change is made. But that will happen anyway just like people breaking the tester and throwing discombobs when they shouldn't. As I've stated above, I think you don't really know what suspicion is. This is not about DNA at all. This is about witnessing a person destroy a body or in the same exact effect, render it unreachable to the living. Carned, please go through a hypothetical scenario of RDM with these changes made to the motd, because no one else has made any legitimate ones.
I snipe you across the map for dumping a body off the rooftops edge, i dont know that the body is a T body (Useless) You report me because you weren't destroying an inno body. I say, oh he was dropping a body off the edge. I get slain next round. Also, if a body doesn't have DNA then its useless, so why would the rule even count for those bodies? You can't change my mind, it's a stupid rule and i will always -1 it.
Carned, that wouldn't be RDM for you, you shouldn't be slain, you say that I dropped a body, you look at body, it may be a traitor body but that doesn't matter because in the rules no destroying or discarding bodies. I would be in the wrong, you'd be in the right. So again, scenario? Also, if a discombob doesn't hurt people then it's useless, why would the rule even count for those grenades?
Discombob's launch props, which can do damage. I just see more loopholes coming from this than anything.
And if there are no props around? Why still? You think that we should apply an exception to bodies and the information they hold (DNA is not the only valuable info on a body) and not grenades? What's the difference, in some cases it hurts people, and in some cases it's just trolling. Also I edited my post so I guess you didn't see it, could you show me a scenario of these loopholes that you mention?
What valuable info is on a non DNA body? Weapon killed? - Cant kill for that suspiscion Last seen - Can't kill for. Last worlds - Only killable if "Is a traitor" Also a loophole Player is holding a body off the edge and get shot, body falls, player who has killed gets away with rdm because the body has fallen to the ground and the staff see the body on the ground, only way around this is if every user records gameplay.
All that information is useful, even if you can't kill for it, if I see some DB deaths towards end of round and I only see one person walking with a DB, that's some pretty useful information. So you're saying trolls have a higher chance of being RDM'd if they're toying with bodies near cliffs? Let them be shot, maybe they should actually join the game and play serious. Only two categories of people toy with bodies near the abyss, traitors and trolls, and I don't know about you but when I am innocent, I hate both of them. That innocent should only be moving bodies to safer spots or giving it to a det. Why would an innocent want to make it appear to others that he is a traitor?
