Invalid Report against Ravin

Name of Staff/Player:

Ravin​

Steam ID of Staff/Player:

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Your Steam ID:

Heinrich Himmlebola​

Which Server:

West 2​

Which Map:

Forums​

Which Round:

n/a​

Time of Occurence:

9/13​

Reason For Report:

http://www.seriousgmod.com/threads/darmanilinks-appeal.22659/#post-195895

If you read his "reply", it is obvious that he did not even read my appeal, or rather briefly skimmed over it.

As you can see in my appeal, he said "You call those who do not agree with your jokes or racist remarks 'idiots' or 'edgy'", when I was in fact, calling myself an idiot and edgy in a reply to someone who posted. ("You will enjoy your life so much more than if you go around getting offended at a bunch of idiots being edgy")
If he didn't just go in with some kind of argument motivated SOLELY by feelings, that would be obvious if he actually attempted to read and understand it.

He is also using outdated information, from almost a year ago, as grounds for a current ban.

He never once addressed anything in my main appeal.

For his main reason for banning me, it seemed in his reply, he quoted Mr Rodger's Post (The fact if the matter is, if the term itself is derogatory and somebody takes offense to it, it's harassment. There is no arguing that.), in which two conditions had to be met. Yes, it was derogatory, however, it is obvious in the post that got me banned that nobody once said they were offended. In fact, some people were joining in, which says the opposite. That they weren't offended, and were having fun acting like a bunch of idiots. (http://www.seriousgmod.com/threads/report-against-jarbeezz-heinrich-himmlebola.22649/) Nobody once said "Stop", or "This offends me", or anything similar. Instead, they went straight for a report. (Again, it's harassment if it's derogatory, which it was, AND if someone is offended.) How am I supposed to know that they're offended, if they don't say anything? I asked for him to draw the line, and that's where it seemed to be drawn.

This mod works strictly on feelings. It is a horrible trait for anyone to have in any sort of leadership position. If a prosecutor wrote his reports based off feelings, he would be removed from his position VERY quickly.

I'm not asking for that in the slightest, but the fact that he takes emotional appeal and will actually use no logic in the slightest, and PURELY emotion in a reply without even attempting to comprehend the appeal shows that his very personality likely isn't suited for a position of power. He shouldn't have his status taken away, but someone needs to have a talk with him. If he actually can't look at reports from a detached, logical viewpoint, then he isn't emotionally stable enough to be in an authority position.

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Evidence And/Or Witnesses:

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@Ravin will respond when he can and his administrator @BlueCore will render a final verdict on this report. Also understand that no one has to say "This offends me" for a phrase or word to be harassment. If I were to shout racial epithets at no one in particular it would be harassment as it is a repeated annoying or unwanted action. Anyways, they'll respond when possible, have a nice day.

 

Then what does count as harassment? Mr Rodger's drew the line pretty well I thought, but that's apparently false.

Draw the line. I see it defined as aggressive pressure and intimidation, or something that could be offensive, combined with someone taking offense. But is it really fair to punish someone for offending someone, when he did not know that they were offended? When someone says "Stop", I stop. If it's a repeating, annoying action, then that's spamming. Not harassment. But I was not spamming, since I only did 1 thing 3 times over a period of 5 minutes.

When they don't, and especially if people join in without anyone saying stop, then that comes across as "They don't care, and are having fun acting like 13 year olds." That isn't even unwanted, in that case.

Draw the line.

What is harassment?

 

Here's a definition: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/harass and as you can see that action doesn't require someone stating clearly "Stop." I also took the liberty of reading up on your past appeals and reports, so I find your question a bit odd. You should know by now what harassment is as well as what is and isn't allowed on our server. Just try to be patient and Ravin, his administrator BlueCore, and anyone else involved in this situation will post eventually. Regardless of any of this, I've provided you an answer to your question and will now be extricating myself from this report, for the most part.

 

I thought I knew, but it turns out I don't.

At first, It meant it had to be directed at someone

Then it was multiple people had to take offense

then it was one person had to take offense

Now it's people making stupid jokes without anyone saying they were offended (By the way, my family was part of that event. Not on the german side, so I kind of get to make fun of it)

So I guess, finally, "If it could hurt someone's feelings, you aren't allowed to say it"


(I would like to add that I asked Highwon before if racial comments were harassment, and he said it himself, that if someone says that they're offended, then it's harassment.) Which implies that, otherwise, it's fine.

 

I don't really know what to add here. Someone did say something, hence a forum report and you've been warned multiple times about it. A lead approved your ban? No one has to work around when you feel like they should, or should not be offended. Nor does that said person have to approach you to say, "You offended me, stop.' We have a report system for a reason as you have had multiple reports against you for your actions. A report was filed on the forums as it should have been, but no players have to personally approach you by it. If I start saying racist/homophobic things. A player doesn't need to approach me about it. They can go to staff or go to the forums as they clearly feel uncomfortable enough as it is with what you are saying that a direct approach is actually advised against because that leads to just arguments, which you are very prone to do.

The thing is, you have been warned, by multiple staff. Diehard, Bluecore, Myself, TheCOCOCFTW, beautifulbutterfly, Mr.Rogers, and Darktooth are just the documented staff.

The more people explain the situation to you, the more you argue it. Its pretty short and simple. If the ban wasn't justifiable, which mind you a Lead Admin approved it, then you wouldn't have been banned in the first place. This is why you felt I had 'skimmed' or 'read over' your ban because what you said for the ban was a chunk of 'reasoning' when there is no justifiable reason for the way you were speaking, or saying things. There isn't much to comprehend. You feel like your humor is somehow justifiable and someone should approach you about it when they feel offended and maybe you will stop, or stop in the moment. How many times do we need to tell you to stop before you understand it isn't acceptable?

You dug yourself a hole your first major ban and didn't listen to anyone, then had multiple complaints about you, and tried to use Highwon's name in your appeal before and were caught misleading the staff about it. Though, the length of the ban was specified by a Lead Admin, @Disruptionz . If he had felt anything I had provided to him was invalid, he wouldn't have approved it- nor given it the time he did.

Ill let @BlueCore finish up here . There isn't much to say. Pretty much got information, gave it, ban provided, ban appeal submitted, denied due to same evidence provided. No emotions involved.

 

Actually, they thought I meant in the current session.

The instance I was talking about was from a month ago.

 

Is a forum report and multiple warnings, which finally lead up to your ban, not an indication to you that it was very toxic and harassing members?

When someone says stop, how many times does someone have to say stop until you should stop? Once, Twice, Thrice?

 

So tell me this, since the definition of harassment is so vague, they do not have to say they feel that they're being "harassed", and if other people are joining in without anyone saying that they don't like it, then what does that say to to you?

Someone made a forum report, which led straight to a ban without anyone saying it in game. So why even have a harassment protocol when you'll just get banned regardless?

I'm not saying a direct approach, I'm just saying something like "I'm triggered/stop saying x"

 

It was, that's why I tuned it down each time. I stopped saying racial slurs, I still called some people "faggot" ironically, but most people do as well on the server, and nobody says shit to them, or even reports them on the forums, even the one's that call people faggot as an insult, not ironically.

Also, I was not warned in game, once.

And for the most recent one, Shit, I'm jewish and I was making light of the nazis. That's fine, isn't it?

 

Depends on what is offending them and how they position it. If someone said, "I don't think Black people should be playing here because they offend me." - Would not be a valid report.

If someone said, "I don't like the word 'nigger' being used because I find it offensive and stereotypical. Please tell them to stop." - Would be valid.

The harassment guidelines are vague for that reason and handled case by case. If you didn't have a previous history for such bans, you would have not been banned for the length or time. You have had those warnings already, so we can't really 'talk' like this is your first offense. Or Second, Or even Third.

These two statements contradict each other. Either one implies one was done without the other. Someone did say something, protocol had been followed. You are running yourself in a circle. You seem to comprehend enough that warnings should be given and guidelines should be followed. We followed that process. Your situation required a different process because normal protocol cannot handle your situation due to multiple offenses and warnings.

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but you didn't, and that is why you got banned.

 

This report will be locked until BlueCore has time to review it, to refrain from unnecessary clutter and bickering on this thread.

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

Hello DarmaniLink,

Thanks for taking the time to write up this Report against my Moderator Ravin. I apologise that it took me some time to respond to it, but now that I have the time I will be looking over all of the discussion here, on your Ban Appeal, and all the links that have been provided by all parties.

I would first like to bring up an important point, that has already been brought up but is something that I need to make sure you are fully aware of. This point being, that no one needs to approach you and tell you to stop before it is considered harassment. Yes, I'm sure that if you were told by the particular members of the community that felt discomfort as a result of your behaviour, you would have stopped. But this is something not needed to cause a conflict and to be considered harassment. As a staff member, and in particular an Administrator here are SGM, I take our member's comfort very seriously, and do whatever I can to make sure that not only do our members and player-base enjoy their time here, but furthermore make sure they are constantly comfortable whilst spending their time here.

Some of the remarks I have either witnessed you make personally, and some of the remarks I've seen via images here on the forums, I consider to cross the invisible boundary of what is acceptable. You mention that people will make light of what's wrong with the world for comedic relief, and I agree with this statement. A lot of sensitive topics or situations are overcome through not forgetting them, but by remembering them. On these occasions sometimes we try to make light of the harsh circumstance and find a reason to laugh with it. Is there a problem with this? No, I do not believe so. I do believe that anyone is allowed to laugh off a topic that they once found difficult to deal with or hard to handle. Everyone is not only allowed their own opinion, but is allowed to feel for anything in the way that they are feeling it.

The problem with this though, is that this is only your feelings to a particular topic, and not everyone's. Whilst you may want to joke about a topic, or laugh it off, another person may still be very sensitive about that topic, for any number of reasons. Yes, it is your opinion, they are your feelings, but other's feelings could be effected as a result of yours and what you choose to voice. In this light, there needs to be a level of censorship when openly expressing yourself or your opinions in the public domain. Without this censorship, a lot of conflicts, and a lot of discomforts can arise. This is something I'm sure you can understand.

We all have an opinion, you do, I do, and everybody else here in this community. While we do have these opinions, we must work out the difference between acceptable ones to say, and ones that are better remained in private. The deciding factor to whether or not something should be allowed to be voiced publicly, is the public. Controversial topics that have many different opinions, or topics that the majority consider to be ones better remained unsaid, are the topics that we do not condone to be discussed or brought up within our community.

It is unfortunate to say, that some of things you have said on the servers, on multiple occasions, are these topics that shouldn't be brought up. Some of the remarks I have personally witnessed you say have offended several different members of this community, and I know that I have approached you more than once myself about settling down, and have told you to refrain from talking about these particular topics in future.

As a long standing member of this community, and as someone who has been approached to several times by several different members of the staff team, you should know what to and what not to say on the servers. I must admit that I am a little disappointed to see another Report against you on the same topic. And on this light, I believe that giving you the punishment you have been given, is not only acceptable, but needed for you to fully understand how seriously we take these matters.

Furthermore, after reading through both yours and Ravin's post, I do not believe that Ravin was acting only on feelings. As I've already said, we take these matters very seriously, and as such members that have repeatedly offended our Harassment rules already, are at a penalty for any additional reports on them. In this light, I believe Ravin to only acting on his protocol, and not on his emotional attachment to the subject.

I'm sure Ravin does work in partial sequence with his feelings, as we all do, but this does not cause any issue with this situation. I believe that these feelings you say Ravin is manipulated over, are only feelings of worriment to the disturbance and quality of our community. Ravin, as well as I and all other staff members, strive to keep this place clean, orderly, and happy. This I know is why Ravin decided to take these actions, and put forth his argument in the way that he did.

With all of this said, I do not believe Ravin has acted on his feelings in any ill-impacting way, but only as a result of his position and compassion to keep this community healthy. I do hope that you understand where I am coming from DarmaniLink, and accept my decision when saying that I have found this report to be Invalid. I respect you as a player and valued member of this community, what I ask from you is over the next 4 weeks you thoroughly think about what you say in the servers, and show some more respect towards the other members in this community that your behaviour could be effecting.

See you then.

Status: Invalid
Topic: Locked