Completed Report against Opalium and Carned

Name of Staff/Player:

Opalium and Carned​

Steam ID of Staff/Player:

STEAM_0:1:22634136 STEAM_0:1:40186580​

Your Steam ID:

STEAM_0:1:6055869​

Which Server:

West 1​

Which Map:

TTT_community_pool_overhaul_b3​

Which Round:

3/4​

Time of Occurence:

3:33am pst​

Reason For Report:

Complete misunderstanding of the Logic rule and negligence in following through with evidence provided.​

Evidence And/Or Witnesses:

This is a report mainly directed at Opalium over the Carned report which I feel is incorrect and Opalium handled it very poorly as it's taken numerous weeks to get answers for evidence that I provided.

For background, heres the report on Carned https://www.seriousgmod.com/threads/report-against-carned.36469/

Now for the rest against Opalium, I started a conversation up with them to try to sort this out as this kill could not be based on logic as there were many factors that could have deluded the outcome, even as Opalium states that lag also could have played a part, here is the evidence I've collected that I've shown to Opalium as well as screenshots of the replies from Opalium about this situation.

First off, Carned claimed he knew because he heard no doors open or close, yet in this screenshot the door behind me is open

Spoiler: Door open

Second, I recorded a demo of the sound range and what it sounds like https://www.dropbox.com/s/9vhr21i4rkx17if/carned.dem?dl=0 in which Opaliums replies took a while to come and showed that he would not do his job and investigate this properly.

Spoiler: Jan 26, after numerous times of asking for a reply, finally got it on feb1st

With that reply, it opens up the whole situation to even more variables, I set up the camera to be in the closest possible positions that carned could be in, doesn't matter where I would have been at the time as there are doors everywhere and if Carned could not have heard them from the closet possible spot, then he would not hear anything at all.

Spoiler: another response

with this response, it shows that Carned did not have 100% proof to make it a logic kill or else his video would have provided it, this cannot be a WvW situation as there IS a video provided of the kill and can be dissected to prove that he could not be 100% sure it was me with a simple demo of the range of the sound the doors make.

Spoiler: "Logic kill" response

And finally, after over a week of waiting for Opaliums definition of what a logic kill is and what a suspicion kill, I've finally got one today linking to the extended rules and not in his own words at all.

This could have been solved in day in very little time, the demo takes a couple minutes to view, and if it was corrupted to the point sound could not be heard, anyone can go into garrys mod, load up the map, put up a camera and test the range of the door sounds.​

 

Tagging @Opalium @Falcor @Highwon @Disruptionz please wait for their responses. Edit tagging @Carned too.

 

You know you missed out the part of my video where I can see you shooting from the corner of the door frame but this was a common sense kill, like it or not you don't actually have to witness T acts to kill for them, gmod has directional sound and let's be honest any regular in my position who's played the game for more than 30 hours can tell that kill was common sense.

You're fixated on the door issue but it was only one of the factors that caused your death, almost 4 weeks ago might I add.

I'm sorry that you personally couldn't see the logic behind this kill thankfully most people can.

 

I'm fixated on the doors as its the reason you killed me as seen in your original response

And the reason it's been 4 weeks is because I've been trying to sort it out with Opalium in that time and as it's being handled poorly, I've decided to make a report of it.

EDIT* Killed me because you saw me? are you saying you killed me based off my skin?

 

Hey Rozboon.
Let's get into this and solve this once and for all.

After giving the verdict on your report on @Carned, you started a forum convo with me asking for the reasoning behind it. After not being happy with my response either, you've recorded this demo you made and asked me to watch it as it contains proof to your claim. Since I was busy during that time I was unable to find the time to watch it until a few days later, on Feb 1st, where you also received the response from me. As you can see, after trying to review the demo (which turned out to be corrupted - the door sounds were not playing at all), I still took your claims into consideration and rethought my verdict, which led me to conclude this case as WvW, based on the reasons I explained to you (as seen in your screenshot).
However, you once again disagreed, claiming I have "the whole logic and WvW screwed up" and that the demo is sufficient proof. I then replied to you as following:

Spoiler: #1

As you can see, I once again explained to you the reasons behind my updated verdict as clearly as possible. And again, you were still unsatisfied, and proceeded to ask this:

Spoiler: #2

At this point, I figured you were simply arguing for the sake of arguing. You ignored my previous claims and continued to hold on to the "logic or sus" question, a question which is irrelevant when no verdict can be given on the case since it's WvW. Understanding that nothing I will say will ever be enough for you, I decided to ditch the conversation and wait for you to report me like you've planned anyway. By simply seeing the passive-aggressive tone you've used since the beginning of the conversation one can understand you were only looking to argue:

Spoiler: #3

Anyway, back on point. Today you once again sent me a message, asking if I'm just going to ignore this. I responded with the answer shown in your response. Again, you asked me to explain, so I answered by linking you to our extended rules, where the definition of common sense/logic kills and what's considered kill on sus is provded. Your response, completely ignoring everything I said once again, proved the point I made in the previous pharse:

Spoiler: #4

That was an hour ago, and here we are now.

Now, let me go over the reason I concluded this report as Word vs Word:
Word vs Word is the term we use to describe a case where we, as staff, do not have enough proof to make a verdict, hence the name - "it's your word vs their word". As our policy has always been, we do not take action in cases where we are not 100% certain.
Since the verdict here is based on whether or not Carned was able to hear the doors opening, we have to take into count the sound range limit - in other words, how far can you be from the door before you cannot hear it anymore. This is where things become a problem. We do not have any actual evidence from the situation except for the video provided by Carned, which does not help us - we still do not know if he was or wasn't within that range. Your demo was an attempt to approximate the location, but approximations are not enough in this cases, as every small detail count - a few steps forward or backwards are all that's needed to get in and out the sound range. This means that the location is very important here - and without the exact location through the use of a demo or something else, we cannot be sure. Furthermore, we need to take server lag into count. Since lag can lead to the position of the player from the server perspective not being the same as the client perspective, this may have further affected the position of Carned during that second where he was between being out and in the sound range. Again, given that only a few steps are what makes the difference here, those factors are important.
Due to all this, as I explained to you a few times already, the situation becomes WvW - your word vs his word. There is no way for us to know whether or not Carned was within hearing range, and this is what makes it WvW.

Rozboon, I'm not really sure what your'e to get from all this. Your responses to me, as well as your tone in this report and in our convo, clearly show that your only intention is to try to find a way to "not lose the argument". Why you're trying to do this is out of my scope of understanding, but nevertheless, it is your choice.


I am tagging @Highwon and @Disruptionz to give their verdict.

Thank you for your time.
~Opalium

 

First things first, let's not try to distort the timeline here by cutting out the dates that messages were posted,

Spoiler: fullchatof"timesaticking"spoiler

As I stated in the conversation, I didn't want to have to make a report, but due your slow replies, I was forced to as a way to get more information out of you, and maybe even possibly getting more opinions on it as I've recorded a video of how the sound range is actually pretty limited, and how the original response was due to hearing no doors opening or closing yet there was an open door right next to me he claimed "didn't happen".

*edit The reason I'm fighting this so much is for the simple fact you claim there is not enough evidence when there is, just as an investigator recreates a scene of a crime, we can do the same here, we have a video of Carned and his kill on me, and the time it all went down in, my sound range video is from the closet possible location that you can be to hear the doors.

With Carneds video, we can see that I kill the person at 9 seconds, at 14 seconds carned is in range of the first set of doors as my demo of the sound range provides, at 16 seconds hes in range of the full room of any sounds the door can put off, that gives me a 5 second head start on the front doors, and a 7 second headstart on the back doors, now we can look at when carned makes it to the back set of doors, 20 seconds, thats 4 seconds to run from the front of the room where the death took place, to the back.

Using logic, we can see that I had a 3 second failure period to miss a door, or stand there before opening a door in which Carned would be out of range from the sound. This is ALL provided with the 2 videos, the range demo and Carneds. So how is this still a WvW when you have a sufficient amount of evidence that provides everything you need to come to a conclusion?

 

Again, as I stated in my response, taking your claim into consideration is what made me change my verdict in the first place. Not only that, but the "open door" there has nothing to do with the report or my reasoning for the verdict. Whether it was open or close doesn't change anything as our focus is on whether or not Carned could hear it before seeing it. Also, the dates are irrelevant as I was not trying to sort the events on the timeline, but to show examples to support my claim.

Now, since we're getting into the timing: you are forgetting an important detail - in the video we can see that all the doors at the back of the room are closed (except the one you were near, but there's another door behind it). This means that even if the killer would've gone through one of these, they would have to close it behind them or else we would see one of them were open.
Running to one of the doors from the initial position takes around 4.5 seconds (Carned made it just close to them in 4, so within half a second he would be in opening range of them), and opening it takes another second. This means that after roughly 5.5 seconds you would be able to pass through the door. Turning back and closing the door takes another second in that case. This results in around 6.5 seconds. At this point, Carned was already at the front of the room - the same gray area we are talking about. This leaves about a 0.5 second margin for him to miss the closing sound. Considering the factors I have mentioned previously, even momentary lag or a few steps at this point could make Carned miss the sound he might've been able to hear otherwise.

 

One big thing you're missing, all those doors are rooms on their own with a seat that someone can sit on and no on would know anyone was inside of them, that's what I'm trying to point out is that theres too many variables for someone to say that this could be a logic kill, which means that from the time I killed the person, to the first room to hide in would take 2 seconds using carneds video, now if the door took 1 second to open, then to close (which i doubt it takes that long, more like half a second to open and close) it means that it would have been 4 seconds length from the kill to a hiding spot that involves opening and closing doors which is still out of the hearing range of Carned which he got into range within 5 seconds as I stated previously which means he would not have heard ANYTHING and I would be safe and sound in the single bathroom.

 

It was not a missunderstanding that they where wrong, the basically did everything that they are supposed to do, like what highwon is saying.

 

@Opalium told me to post here if I had a problem

Spoiler: Pic

My problem is that you are obviously in the wrong, yet will not just admit it, even after Highwon proved it. Besides the fact that it was an extremely easy report to begin with as it was kill on sus, Highwon conclusively proved your arguments wrong and irrelevant. Upon seeing this my assumption is that a responsible staff member would simply admit what they did and move on, yet you just decided to let this stay open for over a week, why?

 

He meant post a different thread.

 

This report is against me so it needs to be finished by either Highwon or Disruptionz as they are my superiors. That's how it works.

 

I'd appreciate it if you would not unnecessarily bump the thread unless you have some new evidence to add or were directly involved, this could have been easily sent in a PM. What are they teaching mods these days, if you didn't want the thread bumped then why bump it again after me.

 

Do you not think it would be more professional and show a better face to the community if you would admit your wrongdoing, or are you hoping somehow that this gets denied?

 

Again, that's not how reports work here. I cannot make the verdict on my own report. That would be illogical.
Also, since you are not directly involved in this report, you shouldn't be posting here. As I said in shoutbox, if you have any complaints about me you are free to file your own report (it doesn't mean you should post other people's reports though).

 

This will be the last I post here as you are about to punish me for it, even though my complaints were about this and you told me to post my complaints in the report staff section. Should I make a new report about the same thing? Jesus can you use your head?
You can't declare a verdict on your own report of course, but you can and should admit when you do something wrong. It is hilarious to me that you are skating around all my questions, so I will be even more direct; Did you do anything wrong in the scope of this report?

 

I'm just going to comment here as a neutral third party.

Since all evidence has been brought forth regarding this incident, I believe that we should wait for @Highwon or @Disruptionz to deliver the final verdict.

That being said, I will be locking this report.

Apologies for the time it has taken to reach a decision.

 

After reviewing the report personally, then looking over Highwon's analysis of the VOD, I too am inclined to believe that this was a kill on suspicion by Carned. There isn't much left to say on my part; Highwon laid it out very well.. Ultimately, many reports like this one have a multitude of variables that affect the outcome of a Staff Member's decision, so it is understandable that Opalium and Carned came to an incorrect verdict.

Regardless, I will be speaking with Opalium to ensure that he does understand why this report is Valid. Thank you for filing a report, as not all reports are negative, but can be learning experiences just the same.