How to prove when a traitor buys something from the traitor menu & a rule clarification suggestion

By the end of this post, you will understand how to use logical deduction to spot a traitor purchasing an item from the traitor menu. I am also suggesting a rule clarification that takes into account the effects of using this method of deduction.

When a player purchases an item from the pointshop, they are automatically forced to switch to that weapon. If they already have a weapon for the slot being purchased, the current weapon in that slot is also dropped. When a player purchases an item from the traitor or detective menu, they are not automatically forced to switch to that weapon. Only detectives can access the detective menu.

When a player purchases an item from either the pointshop or the traitor/detective menu, a "weapon picked up" sound is played, emanating from the player that purchased the item. Garry's Mod supports positional audio for people wearing headphones, so if you are listening with headphones and you have two ears, you can tell that a player purchased an item from one of the shops (pointshop, traitor menu, detective menu).

If a player hears another player purchase an item, there are no items near the player, they do not drop or switch their current weapon, the player is not a detective, and there are no other players nearby, it is a fact that the player has purchased an item from the traitor menu. All items in the traitor menu are traitorous to have, so it is KOSable to purchase something from the traitor menu even without switching to it.

Some mods/admins seem to be in disagreement about this, with some saying that this is acting on suspicion (presumably without knowing about the supporting evidence I have provided) and some saying that this is acting on evidence. By proving these facts, I hope to clarify that this information should be considered evidence. @ThatBox will attest that he can hear the sound from the traitor menu purchases without switching weapons. He has also witnessed that the pointshop forces players to switch to any items they purchase.

In summary, the following is true:

• Garry's Mod supports positional audio, exposing both the direction (as determined through human binaural perception) and distance (as determined by sound intensity/"loudness") of a sound
• You can hear when a player purchases an item
• You can determine if an item purchase was from the pointshop or from the traitor/detective menu due to the fact that players are forced to switch to items purchased in the pointshop
• Only detectives can access the detective menu
• Only traitors can access the traitor menu
• You can determine if a player is a detective by observing: their name indicator, scoreboard background color, or player model

If you have evidence to contest the validity of my claims please state so in the comments.

I would like to suggest this addition to the rules (or at least the in-depth clarified rules forum post), so that players may act on the above facts without fear of being slain:

"Using logical methods to deduce a traitor menu purchase is not suspicion."

If this clarification will not be added to the rules, I plead for at least allowing these reasons, when explicitly stated in a report response, to be treated as evidence.

Every time I've ever used this method to identify and kill a traitor, it has always been correct 100% of the time, as there is quite literally no other logical conclusion when you take into account all of these facts (if you can think of another logical conclusion please state so in the comments). Also, yes I always serve any slay for this from a misinformed mod. I would just like it so that using this method doesn't also get you slain when a mod isn't aware of the facts behind this method of deduction.

I will continue to use this method until someone can disprove its correctness in the same kind of logical terms that I have presented here on this forum. I have no intention to defy or anger the powers that be, so if it is stated to me from a lead admin that I can no longer use this method, I will no longer use it. Until then, I will do this as I consider it logical and fair. I hope that I do not upset the current staff through my use of this.

I consider this method fair as traitors have many countermeasures available to thwart anyone using this method of deduction:

• They may walk into and stay close to a large group of players during the purchase in order to defeat positional audio
• They may walk away and keep a safe distance from all other players so that the other players do not hear them purchasing items
• They may hide in a closed room so that nobody witnesses that they didn't auto-switch weapons. Some maps even have traitor-only rooms that will help them easily accomplish this in privacy.
• They may walk on top of a pile of weapons so that it is difficult to tell if they simply picked up a weapon or purchased a weapon, and cannot track if one of the weapons was picked up due to there being many in the pile
• They may actually pick up a weapon at the same time as purchasing something from the traitor menu (this requires good timing and moving while in the traitor menu)

All of the maps offered on the Serious TTT servers have more than enough space in them to perform any of these countermeasures.

Thank you for your consideration, and I hope to see your feedback on this method of deducing traitors.

 

I like the concept you've created. However, I think the people that should really give input on this would be @Highwon, @Slicck, @Darktooth, and @Disruptionz.

I, personally, think the best solution for this and keep the least amount of potential RDM from occurring would be to disable the auto-equip function for weapons purchases in the shop or disable the pick up sound played when purchasing an item for traitors.

 

Yeah, I agree that disabling the auto-equip part of the pointshop would invalidate this method of deduction and it does seem like a reasonable alternative solution if implemented.

Disabling the sound itself from traitor menu purchases is interesting, but I have a feeling that it would be much harder to implement (due to all of the gmod code hooked into weapon pickup) than disabling the auto-equip function.

 

You really did your homework haven't you?

I agree. This would probably be the best solution

 

Also, this same rule should be applied to traitors picking up smg ammo when they have a Sniper Rifle, Shotgun, or even a 9mm automatic weapon.

 

As logical as this sounds, it seems very-

Scratch that. Not as abuse-able as the unid'd body claims people make. I mean, logs will also show purchasing of T weapons, correct? If it does, and someone claims to kill a T based on using this argument and the T did not purchase an item then it's actually very loophole-proof if that's the case. Until you encounter the T saying "Oh, I was near a weapon and picked it up." It's something that clearly needs to be worked out on many fronts, but I think it can become fairly loophole-proof with some work.

Great idea this is. I'd love to see @Darktooth @Highwon @Slicck and @Disruptionz give this some thought.

 

Honestly, I'm impressed.
You put up a compelling argument and I actually agree with you but in the end it's up to the four higher-ups (aka the four horsemen hue) that if this is KOSable or not.

@Darktooth @Disruptionz @Highwon and @Slicck

 

I would absolutely love to read this whole thing and give feedback. I will later tonight, as I am celebrating my anniversary with my girlfriend at the moment. Thanks for understanding.

 

@Angelx has expressed in the past that this is not allowed. The player could have a jack hammer, UMP prototype, Intervention, etc - all of which are not traitorous weapons to have.

@sephr very well written. I can see your argument clearly and concisely. To be frank, I don't have any contest against your thesis. I've never paid attention to the sounds of buying weapons from menus, so I can't confirm it, but if this really is the case - that you can hear T-menu buy sounds - then I also don't see a reason it shouldn't be allowed. It would just have to be another thing Traitors would have to be aware and careful about.

 

I remember doing this trick on a different server a long time ago, but I realised that it offers no counterplay for the traitor, isn't fun for me because he can't do anything (no challenge), results in unnecessary reports and slays and generally isn't fun for either player. Best thing to do is disable autoswitch on F3 weapons and possibly remove the sound made when buying a T weapon if possible?

Also, not sure why this guy got voted dumb/disagree:

I know you can't kill due to D weapons picking up other ammo, but this rule is usable when no detectives are in play (as in 0 at the start of round)

 

The thing about this is, I am so quick to buy things from the shop when I am a T I rely on it going to the pointshop me having my gun ready. But I agree I am fine with this being removed. But you could still argue they had a weapon that didn't drop

 

What about if they were to pick up pistol ammo, since there is no detective weapon which takes pistol ammo, it would have to be a silenced pistol wouldn't it?

 

Here's how I think about this and again I need confirmation for this thinking as it is based solely off of the logs tracking T items being purchased.

Some cases, like actually what Zane just described, sounds like the ammo would be picked up when the weapon was already purchased. No knowledge of a pistol already being in their inventory and blah blah it's annoying.

What I'm thinking and pretty sure everyone else knows is that this should be KOSable if and only if the logs show T items being purchased, and then the T is killed almost immediately for purchasing this T weapon without any other ammo boxes or whatever to create doubt about the situation, and the logs will show the T item being purchased followed by a swift death.

 

Yhey would have to have a regular pistol equipped as their primary and how often does that actually happen?

 

"Like the same sound when you pick up ammo?" <- Answer I got when I asked this.
I asked the same question and because ammo boxes sometimes like to glitch themselves into weird places. You cannot kill for this sound.

 

You will only ever hear it from glitched ammo boxes if they are moving and you heard the sound, as it cannot ever be due to the glitch if the player is standing still and then you hear the sound. Ammo boxes don't move themselves and it would have been picked up instantly when moving through the area, so after standing there for a second you can rule out any possible glitched ammo boxes. Every time I've noticed and killed someone for this they were standing still, alone with me, and not near ammo.

Also the ammo trick is cool and I use it on other servers without the same detective guns, but on Serious TTT you can only kill someone for picking up SMG or sniper ammo when there were 0 detectives at the start and the player is holding a non-SMG/sniper primary when they pick up the ammo. That is the only way to be 100% sure with the ammo trick.

 

You are never allowed to KOS on picking up ammo.

http://www.seriousttt.com/threads/are-you-allowed-to-kos-for-someone-picking-up-sniper-ammo.13223/

 

I contest that in the same logical terms that I have contested that you can prove when a traitor buys something from the traitor menu in this thread. I mark people KILL who pick up SMG ammo when there are zero detectives (from the beginning) and the player is holding a non-SMG-using item. The thread you have posted uses no logical reasoning to invalidate the claim, only a simple yes/no because we could add hypothetical weapons in the future (which have never been added so far). Nobody in that thread disproved the actual method.

People don't like not being allowed to think. I cannot think of one possible situation that could ever possibly explain how they picked up SMG ammo with a non-SMG-using primary out in a detectiveless round. Every SMG-using and sniper-using gun available to the innocents is a primary weapon.

Of course I seldom if ever use this as there is almost never a round without detectives. But whenever there is a detectiveless round (or a round where I am the only detective, as I can keep track of my own purchases, and I never buy the UMP or Intervention anyways) I run around carrying around an SMG box putting it into people who are holding non-SMG-using primaries. If they have an M16 for example, and they pick up the box, I mark them KILL (no public KOS, just internally to myself) and run away as this deduction is only logical (and 100% of the time they are traitors as I have proven in the method above). The whole point of this game is to find out who the traitors are, not to cower in a corner waiting for a traitor to shoot you when there are no detectives. Proactive sleuthing should be encouraged, such as following a player from a distance to observe their actions when they think they are alone (e.g. they might shoot someone and think nobody saw). Innocents have always been allowed to use such proactive methods of observational sleuthing instead of the reactive-only choice of self defense.

The reason provided is only reasonable when, if ever, secondary weapons are added to the server that use SMG or sniper ammo. I get the general policy, but we shouldn't simply ignore logic until said weapons are ever added.

An important thing to understand about this method is that someone using it is probably very familiar with Serious TTT and would of course be paying attention to the available weapons. All of this RDM is hypothetical and these dumbing-down requirements on logical reasons just make innos not allowed to think. It has been a year since that post and never have any secondary weapons been added that use SMG or sniper ammo. When if ever such a weapon is added, I will notice and I will stop using this method to mark people KILL.

Btw, I do not act on the KILL tag until they shoot me. I just use it to remind me that yes, they are a traitor and will try to kill me.

 

sephr this isn't about them not liking or understanding deduction. This is a rule put in place by the owner. Also a moderator does not have discretion and they are not allowed to go against these rules. Since it is RDM according to the rules they have to slay you.

 

I have stopped acting on the ammo trick since reading that post, but I still mark them KILL to keep myself reminded that they are a traitor.

It's very stressful having to wait until they shoot you first when you know they are a traitor, but for now I must wait for them to shoot me first. When I am the only detective, I can at least shoot near them until they finally try to shoot back, but when there are no detectives all I can do is wait for them to shoot me since I do not and should not traitor bait as inno.


I think we should try to keep this thread on the topic of traitor menu purchases. If you want to further discuss the ammo trick, I think we should split that off into a new thread.