Rejected Damage logs accessible to everyone

If people are bitching about why this person didn't get slained, explain it to them. They keep complaining? Gag them/mute them. Simple.

If you're arguing with staff/old members, you should be able to talk on a reasonable and respectable level.

I completely agree with these statements. Most of us aren't babies and can handle things themselves. I'd rather look at the logs and analyze my situation instead of having staff do it and keep other players waiting. If there is no reason for players to look at F8 logs when they have console, why not give it to them in the first place?

 

Just because this isn't an everyday occurrence doesn't mean it's not helpful.

 

There is a protocal for gagging and mutting someone, we can no just simply do it because someone is complaining about a slay, that would be a gross abuse of power.

 

Why were the logs removed in the first place? Were people complaining about it?

 

+1 From me, especially if we have access to deathscenes

The logs we can get from the print damage logs command are low quality, at best. There is also an extremely narrow window of time you can access them, and if you miss that window, you're left in the dark. Just being able to access damage logs outside this window is a fantastic convenience, and makes this extremely valuable.

The biggest con I can see with this is people will be able to change their narrative after reviewing the case. One of the biggest ways to fight this is making the damagelogs unavailable while they are answering a report. They can still give more details after the fact, but this gives the staff the ability to choose which details to listen to. I would be shocked if liars would be able to abuse this much. Those that lie and get away with it already do so. If anything, giving the honest players more tools would make it far more easier to catch the liars, because it's far harder to maintain falsehoods under constant scrutiny.

As to the con @Atlas the Gray Jedi Knight brought up, while I'm sure it happens, unless I've been misunderstanding some key staff duties, you aren't under obligation to respond or debate with them. If they are becoming such a pest that this is an issue, wouldn't protocol be issuing a mute or ban for toxicity/harassment? I would find it hard to believe you are helpless against backseat moderators.
And, just by going off personal experience with my own reports, asking "Why wasn't this person slain" has at times been met with being completely ignored, the staff member realizing that person should have been slain, or with a response that helped me further understand the rules.

Deathscenes would be especially valuable, if they didn't create a strain on the server. Not all of us are always recording, but we have recording software, and especially when there are no staff online, being able to access or record deathscenes would be a serious boon. Not to mention, it would be nice seeing how events played out when I make a mistake and get slain, just to have an outside visual on that mistake, or be able to decipher a particularly confusing series of events.

Another Con that some people might think of is the inevitable increase in forum reports. Which would just be kind of more easily dealt with. People will be able to screencap more detailed information with one shot, and if we have deathscenes, you could get detailed specs about the incident, allowing for quicker/clearer verdicts. Overall, RDM will be punished more frequently, and it will help clean up the servers in the long run, even without staff online.

 

-1 I disagree with Pacifist's notion that staff are on most of the time, but I don't disagree with the fact that end of round logs are more than sufficient enough when there's no staff and staff can take care of 99% of cases when they're on.

 

What about when you can't access the end-round logs? Just the convenience of having them available for more than one map should be enough.

 

they already are, i think the command is ttt_print_damagelog

What we already have is good enough. It gives damage logs only, not the misc logs like IDing body.

What I did is bind L to logs by typing "bind l ttt_print_damagelog" in the console.

@Catux

Other than that, turn on shadowplay to record your session, which will also increase your input lag by another 10ms

 

+1

on top of what Jässa already said, this would also help make forum reports more straightforward and much less work on the moderators that do them, as the player reporting is able to gather better proof of what just happened.
The console damagelogs are extremely lacking and clunky and I hate ever having to use them.

 

rdmers are big bullies and they need to be reported on forums so this would make that ez pz to do

 

I'm gonna +1 this because I'd like to see it added, even though I have a feeling it won't be. I've been here for a long time and seen this suggestion get shut down before, but I don't think I've honestly ever seen a truly convincing argument against it. Remember, we had people arguing against deathscenes and countless other additions that have proven to be extremely expedient and successful. Just because a suggestion like this is denied in the past doesn't mean it couldn't be useful.

 

I used to be a mod on a server that did allow people to look at logs. Honestly, I don't understand why all of the mods here are so against this. "It'll make more people backseat moderate" is totally false.

Giving people an option to look through logs and find out exactly what happened is an amazing tool. For example, you are walking along and happen to not see an unID body, which someone kills you for. Instead of instantly reporting them, you can look at your deathscene first trying to find out why he killed you, and when you realize it was a legit reason, not waste staff's time with a report. If someone is gonna use this to try and avoid a slay, dont let people view the logs for a round until its over, and disable the button while someone is answering a report. If someone answers a report, then opens the logs and gives more details, well mods already have to go off of the first answer in the report anyways, so it doesn't matter that much anyways.

Anyone who says the post round logs are enough is wrong. You have a literal 40 second window to open them, and then they get buried in console. I can't tell you how many times I was shot without knowing who did it, and wanted to check the logs for myself, only to forget in the 40 second timeframe and never figure it out, possibly letting an RDMer get away with RDM. And even if you do pull it up, you're scrolling through em so long that the next round starts and you often get immediately killed by a T and lose another round for trying to figure stuff out.

 

I mean one of the arguments was that before deathscene giving everyone access to damage log could easily be used to loophole as there was much harder to prove claims of bodies and such.

 

It's not surprising to see staff ignore unreported damage that was 20 or above. It happens all the time. It's required, sure, but many do not do it simply due to laziness or forgetfulness. I'm not saying everyone does or it happens all the time, but it does happen occasionally as I've personally reported for such behaviour from staff.

You do know that all that's required from forum reports for RDM is the time,map and server? You don't even need the screenshots that many people add because moderators can't go simply off of those alone. They need to double check from the old logs.

I'd say that, I'm in support of a simpler version of the damage logs to the regulars. In the way that, they can access the damagelogs, shotlogs and deathscenes. But, they can only view deathscenes that involve them, not anyone else's. They also won't be able to view Old Logs.

 

I don't really see how this is going to cause backseat moderating unless you have randoms reporting RDM that they find in the logs. This can be solved by adding a clause that states "Don't report RDM that doesn't involve you when a staff is online." Also, people won't do this as much when they realize it ultimately hurts their mod app instead of helping it. :^)

You could make it so the deathscenes aren't available until you've answered a potential report. At the same time, I really don't think people could abuse this as much as you'd think. You can't just claim unID'd or holding a T weapon if it didn't happen. Sure, you might be able to use the deathscene to see that the person you killed did walk past an unID'd body, but if you're not even there to see it, that information won't help you. It wouldn't be an effective way of loophling, and if it did happen, should be punished harshly.

 

You can 100% disable the viewing of Deathscenes just sayin'

 

Before, there was a decent argument: If a player rdmed another player but didn't have a reason then he could have searched through the logs and found a "reason". This has been negated now since staff can check the deathscene to see if the story adds up. I think, since we have death scenes, we should be able to see the logs. I think this would allow players to check the logs before making false reports, therefore reducing the amount of reports in general. There would be no way to loophole and backseat moderating is against the rules so you guys already can deal with that easily. Pros outweigh the very small con.

 

We could put this to use on a low population test server

 

I was just talking about in the past. There was valid arguments for why this wasn't accepted in the past. I never said that it isn't possible to do it now.

 

It's really confusing to see the pushback here. These arguments are completely foreign to anyone who's played on a server where everybody had F8 logs. Having staffed one of these servers for 2+ years, I can tell you that none of these "problems" are actually problems at all.

People don't use logs to fit their agenda or make up a story. It's almost impossible to lie when you have 3 forms of verification.
People don't backseat mod because they have logs. They backseat mod because they're assholes.
It just doesn't happen. It isn't anywhere close to common, worst case scenario maybe. The problem isn't trolls having logs, the problem is trolls. I really don't know how else to put it, lol. Like Stonecutters said, those players should be punished, not everyone else. There really are no downsides that hold up.

Having people be able to look at shotlogs and deathscenes for themselves actually quells most arguments in within a few minutes. When it doesn't, the person is trolling and a mute is in order. It ain't that hard.