Hey again folks, I have a couple of questions regarding the nature of TTT in SGM EU Vanilla server. I also added a bit of humor, hope it won't offend anyone. (TBH I don't really care if it will, it's just a game, laugh it off) The extended rules call: I would like to refer to the two underline marked lines saying: "you may only attack/kill another player if you have a valid reason to do so." and "Like RDMs, KOSes can only be called if there is a valid reason to call them." Confusion #1 Can someone clarify this up for me? I mean, if I saw a terrorist kill another terrorist and then he starts shooting at me, can I really attack him? If someone will see me shooting at him (or just see us crossfire) they might assume I'm the traitor, and not the other terrorist. So there's 1 of 2 options in here: 1. You shoot the terrorist, if you survive to identify his body - You're proven innocent! Congrats. If you shoot him, you might get shot for shooting somebody (which is considered a T act). Basically ending the round for you, because you tried to kill the traitor (as is your innocent duty). If the terrorist was an RDM'r and you killed him / KOSd him, you still might get killed for FALSE KOSing or for "Killing an innocent" (which is a T act). 2. You don't shoot the terrorist, fearing you'll get ryekt by some AK47 out there, in which case you get Killed / KOS'd for Guilt By Association. Mainly because if you don't attack the terrorist who killed the other terrorist, you are to be considered a Traitor because it is an innocent's duty to kill the traitors, and obviously, you spotted one but didn't attack him anyway. So, do something, might get killed, do nothing, might get killed, what can do then? I know. Camp in a tight spot where nobody can kill nobody. And it's just you in there... Waiting for the traitors to come to you. Only it will get you slayed. You know, once most innocent's are dead (according to the rules). So how does on handle said above situation, being the an innocent terrorist? Confusion #2 Assume a round starts and you're picked Innocent and somebody starts shooting at you, just like that. Out of nowhere. Obviously, a good innocent's first acts would be to call KOS on said someone and attack back, as self Defense. Whoa, there. Attack? Do you want to get yourself killed for shooting somebody, which is a T act? You better run! Run! So you decide to call the KOS and run, fearing you'll get killed for shooting at somebody (even though they started shooting at you first). Then a while later a better innocent, with bigger balls sees the first terrorist that you KOS'd on round start and decides to pop one in his head. He goes to identify his body (lucky for him, since he's still alive, since again, he killed a terrorist, which is a T act). The poor good willing innocent discovers the terrorist you KOS'd, the same one who damaged you first is also an Innocent, just like you are! But wait! how could this be? The only explanation is he RDM's. Just like that, on a bright sunny day, he decides he doesn't like your face, so he started shooting at it. What does that mean? It means your'e DEAD. Again. Asking yourself what have you done wrong this time. The only thing you did wrong is FALSE KOSing. Since you KOS'd an innocent (which is a T act) you are to be considered a traitor, and maybe it was you who really shot first! But darn. You just wanted to play the game and beat the traitors. You had no idea that terrorist was an Innocent RDMr. Well, too bad for you, cause now you're dead. Good job. Well played. Try again next round, eh? So how does on handle said above situation, being the an innocent terrorist? Confusion #3 Let's take a simpler example, where nobody kills nobody (well, at least not directly). You are an innocent terrorist, chilling around, looking for unID bodies. You go up that beloved lighthouse only to discover something grand! a C4! Oh boy, and it's an active one as well! What do you do?? standing near it means people can KOS you and Kill you for thinking you planted it! Being a good willed innocent terrorist, you decide to use your tool for your voice - the microphone. You notify everyone you found a C4. You also tell them exactly where it is and how long does it have until it goes boom boom. You stick around the C4 to avoid people getting near it, again, cause you are a good innocent who wants to minimize the C4's casualties. Suddenly, a bright minded terrorist appears. She's wielding an AK47. You're scared shitless that she's going to ryek you with her AK but that's not the case here. You say again, innocently, almost dead from fear to get killed "I saw this c4 in here, it has 24 seconds to detonate!" Then the bright minded terrorist is approaching the C4, and a second after that - BANG! the C4 goes off. You both die. What in the hell? You've seen the C4 has 24 seconds to impact. Only then you discover that the bright minded innocent terrorist has tried to defuse the c4, obviously - without a kit - with you standing right next to it. And she even picked the wrong wire! As you folks might know, C4 wires have a chance of 1/6 to 5/6 (that's 16% to 83%) to detonate it, depending on the duration of the C4 charge - The longer the timer is, the more wires will detonate it. How rude! You both died as innocent. A total expense! and for what? a wrong wire. Technically speaking, the fault here may lay on you, but it may also lay on the terorrist who decided to disarm the C4, without notifying you (or anyone) for that matter. A real heroic, but stupid act. Sadly, this is to be considered a proper use of a T weapon. Meaning the traitor is the one to blame for this, even if the innocent detonated you both. But you know, the Traitor Is a traitor. So how can you really blame him for doing his job? Now you are left only with yourself to blame. Better run off next time when seeing a c4... or you'll get killed for running from a c4. You know, people still might assume you planted it. Can the said terrorist who found the C4 report the innocent terrorist who tried and failed to defuse it, killing both of them, for not calling out they're going for the defuse? Confusion #4 WHAT DO I DO IF A DETECTIVE RDM'S ME?!?!?!?! nothing, you die. He's a detective. Your round is over.
Replay due to character limit (10,000): Final confusion for today (#5) A bright sunny day occurs, and as always, you are picked innocent. You see in front of you two fellas. One starts shooting the other. Bam! you shoot the terrorist who starts the shooting, being a good innocent and all, assuming he is a traitor in act. What? you're dead? how come! That's right. The second terrorist got killed by the first terrorist, who is now identified as a traitor by some other terrorist. Who shot you. Why did they shoot you? I mean, you only did your job, right? WRONG! you did a T act! You killed a terrorist! That's KOSable! But wait! there's more! the innocent who killed you is now killed by another innocent. Because he killed you! The other innocent saw the whole thing, and boy, oh boy, he did not approve of that terrorist killing innocent yourself. So he pops a few mags at him, finishing him off. Only to discover he was innocent as well. But wait, there's more! Another innocent just saw THAT as well! And as a good willing innocent, he assumes the terrorist who killed the innocent who killed you is a traitor for killing an innocent! Bawm. Finishes him off with his snip snip. Good job, nice headshot. Only to discover that THAT terrorist was innocent as well! But wait! there's more! Another innoc just saw- You get where I'm going? This is TOTALLY LEGIT game behavior on the server. Does that seem okay to you? If people were to "act precisely by the rules", there would be a chain of killing innocents. Traitors wouldn't have to trait. Innocents wouldn't have to play the game at all, they just see someone killing an innocent, shoot at him, and get killed for also killing an innocent. An infinite loop, until all innocent are dead. Problem is, only some people play like this. Which is why this loop doesn't really exist at the moment, although, according to the rules, is completely doable. Why is there no 5 seconds grace period? 5 seconds grace period to my understanding, is allowing a terrorist (innocent or traitor) to identify the body of the terrorist he killed. If he goes straight to identify the body - Congrats, you know if he killed an innocent or if he's proven for killing a Traitor. If he looks at you or runs away - He's either RDMing or Traitor, in which case - fire away. But those 5 seconds are CRITICAL part of the game's nature. Instead, in the perfectly logical rules, if you kill a terrorist, no matter traitor or innocent, YOU ARE ALLOWED TO GET KILLED for 5 seconds. Bawm. And just to close it up, if you decide not to do anything - Bawm! GBA. You are considered a traitor. WHAT THE F**K?! I mean, how is this game even working like that? My suggestion is allowing a terrorist to identify his killed terrorist's body. Before shooting him. That sounds more like a proper grace period. Killing the killer isn't really "GRACEFUL", now is it? thanks for your time.
You can shoot him, of course. If you get shot by other thinking you're a T, well that's part of the game. Well, this is also part of the game. Well, nothing, really --- RDMers are part of the game as well. If you KOS an inno since he RDMed you, well you can try your best in explaining to the entire server of what transpired. You can report him for RDM-ing you in the first place, if you really want justice. You cannot KOS when standing next to a C4. A player should be found directly arming the C4 to be called KOS upon; it's written in our extended rules. You cannot since as stated in the extended rules (not exact words), "The one responsible of planting the C4 is at fault, never the defuser" Wait for him to actively damage at you so you can fight back. Of course you might be KOSed as you killed a D, but well that's also part of the game. You can report him when you have a chance to clarify what happened. Infinite loop Innos on Innos kill are part of this wonderful game. They may be trigger-happy but no rule is really crossed in this scenario. Grace period vs GBA - both are part of the game, as well. Nothing much to do about it really. Just hope that you can outshoot anyone that fires at you.
Fair enough, I would like to suggest a slight change of rules. Both about calling out before you defuse a C4 (unless it has <5 seconds) and completely flipping the grace mode. Right now, it's part of the game, but we have a chance to improve the game. To avoid innocents killing each other. Why not doing that?
Hey @Loldudethe6th, While defusing a C4 isn't a guaranteed defuse, the intent of it is to get rid of the threat entirely. The fact that you can not pick and choose the wrong wire - it is completely random, we can not hold the innocent or detective defusing the C4 accountable for cutting the wrong wire. The kills are always credited to the user who armed the C4 because they are the one who created the danger. Making a rule of having to warn before defusing a C4 would be needless as the whole intent of defusing a C4 is for safety. Yes, some innocents may die due to cutting the wrong wire but that is the whole aim of the traitor equipment - to create a nuisance that will work in the traitor's favor. For the various reasonings stated, I do not see this becoming a rule anytime in the future. Nevertheless, I appreciate your concern for the rules and hope you get a better understanding of the concept of defusing a C4. If you wish to make any more suggestions, feel free to make a thread in the appropriate forum: https://www.seriousgmod.com/forums/ttt-suggestions.19/ Thank you, ~Hyper
Thanks for your sincere answer. What do you think about the grace mode? Should terrorist be able to identify the body before being shot or not?
The reasoning for being able to shoot someone for killing a player is that you can never tell whether or not they killed a traitor or an innocent. It would be silly to not allow a player to kill someone for killing someone in front of their face but I can see how you want to be lenient in the event of the player killing a traitor of the kill. While we may want to reduce the death of someone who may be proven, the chance still remains that they could have killed the player as the task of a traitor. We want to give those innocent players the chance to fend for themselves otherwise you will always have to wait for the traitor to shoot you before you can shoot them which becomes a very favorable game for the traitors. Say, for example, that you kill someone in front of me but I have to identify the body and see if they are an innocent before I may kill you. When I identify the body, you can get a clean headshot on me and control the situation. If that rule comes into place, the game just becomes way easier for traitors to get away with bad deeds that they should not be able to regularly. All in all, it comes to more of a "shoot first, ask questions later" concept but it is for the better of the gameplay.
You've quite lost my point there, I believe the killer (traitor or innocent) should be given a chance to Identify the player he killed. The witness shouldn't be the one identifying the body. You get 2-3 seconds of quick judgment like that. Either they take their time or run away or look at you funny, or they immediately go to identify the body. This logic appeals more to me. Killer kills player > Killer Identifies body > Killer is proven innocent / can be killed for killing an innocent. Killer kills player > Killer takes his time / runs away / stares at you > Killer can be killed for not identifying a body. But hey, maybe I'm just an off-minded fella here.
We would just be making the situation a little too intricate and there are too many variables that have to be defined in every other situation such as what is considered as "taking your time"? We like to keep the game simple and a place where you can act on what you see and if you see someone killing someone in front of you, you should be allowed to kill them. We have the 5-second grace period to help with situations like these but if we were to implement specific rules to atone for the situations you explain, the innocents would just be too helpless and the traitors would be way too easy to win with.
