So I recently experienced something very odd..... I bought a T round on Community Pool a few moments ago. I was just minding my own business, and then all of the sudden I was harpooned by my own T buddy. Believing that this was RDM in cold blood, I proceeded to report the player for RDMING me. My T buddy had claimed that it was "crossfire" and that "he was aiming at an inno" Needless to say, he was never slain because this was considered as a legitimate crossfire situation. What I dont understand is how this can be crossfire in any way, shape, or form. Let me tell you why: For one, in any instance, knowing this, you can essentially through a harpoon into a crowd of people and claim crossfire. Triple harpoon? Even better. No slay for you. I spoke to some admins on chat and they said that without video proof of the surroundings, justice could not be served to this dispicable T buddy who blatantly RDM'd me (accidental or not) Secondly, how can a single harpoon be treated as crossfire? The damage logs can not prove who the target was initially, however with a gun it is easy to identify due to the multiple shots being fired. Lastly, I believe that this situation of RDM should be treated as accidental since there is not an efficient way to prove that it was crossfire without any video proof. Which noone really wants to deal with anyways. There is not an efficient way to determine who was around at the time, who the target was, etc. To conclude, I believe that if a T buddy kills you with a harpoon, regardless of the scenario should be considered as RDM. Accidental or not. There is not enough evidence to prove that it was crossfire without video proof, and to me that is a viable reason to be slain. This means that essentially you can throw a harpoon at your T buddy on purpose, say it was crossfire, and then get away with it. Think about that for a moment. PS. I didn't plan on taking it this far and I've never posted on forums before, however I'd love to hear everyones opinion/insight on this subject. EDIT: My main focus of this discussion was intended on determining whether this should be classified under crossfire or not, due to the nature of the harpoon as a weapon in comparison to an automatic weapon. Cheers, Fehpe
There are several situations where crossfire with a harpoon can happen. 1. a t budd jumps in the way (which happens more times than not) 2. You are in a gun fight and you pull and harpoon and get your t buddy accidentally instead of an inno How would you feel, if when during a fight, you harpoon a t buddy and get slain for it but it was an accident? Id be pretty pissed
No. You throw a harpoon at an innocent that is away from a large group, all of a sudden your t buddy comes out from the side and walks in front of the harpoon dying, he reports you, you say crossfire, you get slain, now you're salty.
Crossfire with a harpoon is one of the scenarios that fall under word vs word, meaning that without video evidence we can't slay the victim unless they admit that they killed you on purpose. This is where your opinion differs from the servers however, with cases like this we are not allowed to take action unless video evidence (or any other valid source of evidence) is presented. The reason for this is that without concrete evidence provided, a person's word is not enough to go off of in this case especially. With just words we can't exactly prove whether or not their intent was to kill you with the harpoon but with a video we can look to see if there were any innocents in the vicinity among other things. So essentially without video evidence no action can be taken in WvW situations like this. What you just described here is loopholing, there are harsh consequences for people found lying to get out of their slays.
As we had something of a discussion on the shoutbox about this, I'll just reiterate what I've said and my stance on the situation. We're aware that a lot of our rules have holds in them such as this, and that there are ways for people to maneuver around them. With that said, however, our rules were created in a way that benefits the majority of our players, meaning the occasional RDM may slip past them. Anyone caught intentionally maneuvering around the rules to get out of a slay will be punished. The reason our rules are set in place like this and why we treat crossfire the way we do is because of how often the situation comes up, and the amount of genuine cases of crossfire that our users encounter. Slaying people who genuinely kill a teammate in crossfire would simply be unfair and occur too often. If you notice anyone attempt to loophole around our rules, please either notify a staff member or begin recording to create a forum report. We'll be sure to solve the issue as soon as possible.
Understandable. But what happens if you're on the other end, and you have a bunch of players abusing this rule and intentionally killing T buddys with harpoons that appears to be "crossfire". Its a form of loopholing that people can and will abuse if they know this. And if there is no video proof, they are not punished and it makes the loophole that much easier to get away with. Personally, I have never recorded so I don't know how often people do that. However it seems like a pain in the ass to go through the reporting process just to get someone slain on the forums.
After reading this I will give my insight. For one when you throw a harpoon as a T you try to hit a innocent target. If another T walks into the path of the harpoon when trying to hit my target it is crossfire because you had no intent to hit your t buddy but he got in the way of the fire. With your first point, theoretically you could get away with this without a slay but it would be a dick move and hinder the T's from winner. With your second point, when you throw a harpoon and miss or hit you T buddy there is usually follow up shot to kill. But there is no clear indicator in the logs. With your last point, To prove it might have been crossfire right after you die go to your body and look around to see who your T buddy is trying to hit. Personally I have hit my own T buddy with my harpoon once. He saw who I was trying to hit and he got in the way.
tRUST me bud loopholing runs rampant through these servers and this one small bit about the harpoon ain't gonna change a thing
I believe that the simplest way to solve this is by not applying the rules of crossfire to the harpoon. You are much, much less likely to jump into your ally's harpoon than you are to accidentally wander into his line of automatic fire. It's a simple matter of mathematic probability. The harpoon as far too accurate and slow for those events to be even remotely comparable. It just doesn't make sense to apply that kind of logic to such a different weapon entirely. EDIT: One last thing, it doesn't matter whether or not you'd be upset if this happened to you or if you got slain for something like this. It's about what's fair and reasonable, that's the standard we should hold the rules to.
I don't see your point. In any situation, having less means of loopholing is always better than more, even if it's just one. What you just said sounds kind of lazy. Like it's more of a bother to change the rules than to deal with the consequences that proceed them.
Yeah? You are less likely too, but it still happens. What if it does happen and it is honest to god crossfire? Besides I always think that the harpoon has little to no practicality, and is merely just there for the hell of it (unless you have the triple harpoon upgrade). It's like, sure the harpoon is very accurate and isn't an automatic, but crossfire applies to ALL weapons for the sake of simplicity with the rules. Can the knife be crossfired, Sure, Is it likely? No, but it still can be. It doesn't matter the gun, Crossfire killing is when a traitor gets in the way and is caught in the crossfire.
Like I said, the 'what if' side of things doesn't matter. CDriscoll himself said that the rules are aimed at the majority. Furthermore it's not even a matter of practicality, either. You just can't "crossfire" those weapons. That implies that the line of fire has already been established, and an ally enters that line. Such is that case with any semiautomatic or automatic weapon that shoots multiple projectiles. Every weapon excluding grenades, the knife, and the harpoon fall into this category. They are also non-hitscan projectiles, meaning their likelihood to hit in general is lower. With those weapons, it is throw one and done, you can't keep up a line of fire with a harpoon, knife, or grenade unless you're constantly buying them at an inhuman rate. It comes down to common sense, you really shouldn't throw one of those if you know your buddy is around. And you will almost always know when somebody is around who could be in crossfire, even when they're coming around the corner. You wouldn't blow up an explosive barrel with people around, would you? The punishment surely is the same.
I actually believe you are more likely to accidentally wander into your t buddy's harpoon than into your t buddy's automatic firing. The reason I say this is simply if you walk into your t buddy's line of fire while he's firing say an ak, that's your fault it's easy to avoid it if you just pay attention. However, with a harpoon, it just appears and bam if you you walk in the way you're dead and it's more likely since you won't see it coming whereas an ak or something you see it before you walk into it. We don't treat the t weapons like a knife or harpoon any differently because while it does create options for people to loop hole, the majority of players will benefit by keeping it the way it is. If you see someone loop holing, start recording and report them on the forums. When they are caught loop holing, an admin will ban them for a less than generous amount of time as we do not take kindly to loop hole trolls.
I've been killed dozens and dozens of times by accidentally getting shot in the back by my T buddy. I've killed loads of T buddies in crossfire. I have never been killed by my T buddy's harpoon, not once. It's not even an issue of them just wandering into it, say you're both firing at the same guy in a hallway. Sure, you'll hit your mark most of the time, but with all the chaos you're bound to hit your friend if he gets in between. You have to consider both points in this, not just the victim haplessly wandering into obvious death, but the intrepid T whose overconfidence in firing gets his friend a bullet in the brain.
Ok let's talk about that dude who throws the harpoon. When you are dealing with automatic weapons, you can stop quite easily, and some crossfire can be avoided if you are quick enough. With a harpoon, you don't get that luxory. The second it leaves your hand it cannot be stopped, and whoever is there is going to die. If I throw a harpoon at an innocent I am pretty confident the harpoon will only hit the innocent, because it is not an automatic, the spray wont hit anyone. The only way a T dies is if he walks into the harpoon or just happens to be in the CROSSFIRE.
Just because you have never been caught in harpoon crossfire, does not mean other players have had the same experience. While I have been caught many times in firearm crossfire, I have also been the victim of harpoon crossfire. If I am a traitor walking near innocents and a harpoon kills me, it's a logical conclusion that a traitor buddy was aiming for the innocent player, but the harpoon hit me instead. I do not get upset because I know there will be more traitor rounds in the near future. Likewise, I have also accidentally killed fellow traitors with one of the triple harpoons, while I was aiming for innocents or detectives. Most of the time my fellow traitors will understand because they were ran in front of or near innocent or detective players. If you truly feel like a player is loopholing out of a slay, please report them on the forums along with video evidence. Only by obtaining proof, can the administration be sure a loopholing ban is warranted.
lol thanks guys @Sith Master, @Pacifist, I do concede that I have less experience on the server than either of you, I am not speaking for the nonexistence of T on T kills with harpoons. I simply implied that they are a rarity, and the rules are balanced towards the majority. And the point of this thread was simply to clarify whether or not the harpoon could technically be classified in crossfire, not to argue it's use in loopholing. That's the point I came to debate, as I said I would to the author. I believed it fair and logical in line with the other rules, and I wanted to express that I am not opposed to seeing change.
I wouldn't say T on T harpoon crossfire is a rarity... it just depends on the individual players aim and whether or not they have triple harpoon. Triple harpoon is very, very easy to accidentally snag T buddies with.
