Clarification of Traitorous Acts

Hi all, I would just like a clarification of Traitorous Acts

Okay, explain to me how this situation would play out. Person A is standing on the shelf on the map dolls with a scout. Person A is shooting at the vent with the scout. Person B is in the doll house and sees person A shooting at the vent. Person A isn't actually shooting at anyone. Person B shoots and kills Person A. Under current definition, Person B rdmed Person A. Person B didnt see Person A shooting at anyone, Person B just shot him. Yet I see this all the time on maps like dolls and high rise where someone is sniping, and no one bothers to check if they are actually aiming at someone and just shoots them. If this the actual definition then I believe a lot more slays would be handed out.

EDIT: Keep in mind I understand the difference between shooting at walls with a shotgun and using a sniper rifle to shoot across the map. I expect people to use common sense when deciding to kill someone (The person using the shotgun to murder the box is not commiting a traitorous act but the person shooting the sniper rifle from across the map is)

Thanks

 

It's a little tricky for these situations. The basis for this is that if you are shooting towards a high-traffic location, such as the vents on Dolls, with a sniper rifle or long range gun, there is a high possibility that you're shooting at players that could be down there, so it is indeed a traitorous act. It's the same mindset behind you seeing someone shoot around a corner of a hallway like, for example, Office. Even if you didn't see who they were shooting towards, it's safe to assume they are shooting at someone around that corner.

 

I understand what you're saying Event Horizon and I was under the same assumption. However, earlier today I was on the map high rise where I witnessed someone firing a scout at the single tower. I killed that person only to be slain the next round for RDM. I admitted that I did not see who the person was shooting at and just blasted them. I believe that clarification of the rule is in order to prevent these sorts of things (shooting a scout at a great distance is kosable, randomly firing at a great distance with a huge isn't). Additionally, as it stands currently, I'm now afraid to kill someone I see shooting a sniper rifle because I'm afraid if I can't follow up with "I saw them shooting at person x" I'll be slain. If the admins/mods could collectively come to a decision on the issue and relay it to the players I would greatly appreciate it.

 

The general rule is that any time you use your weapons, you run the risk of being shot.

In this case Player A is just messing around but Player B does not know this. Player B assumes Player A is a T and is sniping someone. Player B kills Player A and assumes he/she is a hero! Player A reports Player B for RDM. Player B responds to the report with "he was shooting into the vents, someone could have been in there" or along those lines. Staff Member checks the shot logs during that time and sees that Player A indeed was shooting a Scout at that time.

Another situation would include the deadly Player C, who does not see Player A messing around but does see Player B shooting someone. This leads to low karma and sad pandas.

 

Like I have stated before. It's all about situational awareness and you should know whether it not a person is in the location a player is shooting. The traitorous act is towards players; not high traffic areas.

Just have situational awareness and know where players are; it's not that difficult.

 

If that's the case I would like my slay voided. I submitted my report in the proper section but Killermarshal seemed to disagree with the both of you (he stated that you NEED TO SEE the person being shot). I can no longer post in that topic.
EDIT: Mango, could you describe what you would do if you were player B? Would you shoot player A? Keep in mind that this would be like a real game and player A may duck into cover quickly.

 

I wouldn't shoot player A unless I knew that there was a player in the direction they were shooting.

If I assume that they are shooting at someone it would be killing them because I suspected them to be shooting towards someone which is killing on suspicion.

This situation is just like the reversal of KOSing on a location. Like if there were shots coming from the closet on dolls or the tower on rooftops, but you didn't know who shot, so you KOS everyone in that location. That would be suspicious, but not traitorous. The only way it would be traitorous is if you saw a person watching someone shoot another person and they did nothing.

You cannot assume everyone in a location with multiple entrances and exits is a traitor, just as you cannot assume that someone is actually shooting at someone if you don't know someone is there for sure.

Suspicious yes.

Traitorous no.

 

So would you disagree with Krys and Event? It seems that this is a debatable issue and I would appreciate it if more people chimed in. As for the reversal of KOSing on a location, I think it's slightly different. On one hand, you know exactly who shot, (Person A). You saw them shooting into an area that could contain others (the vents, dollhouse, wherever). Given these circumstances, shouldn't you be allowed to shoot them? I don't understand how that's not a traitorous act, even if it's just an inno screwing around he could be very well shooting at someone. Plus, this would give traitors a huge advantage on large maps (No one can see who that person is sniping at, so lets just let him keep sniping.). Also I can't even remember how many times I've been called KOS on or shot in the head for sniping on these maps. Not once did I ever think, that was rdm! I understood I was shooting (sometimes I was just trolling) and that by shooting across the map with a sniper rifle, I am exposing my self to retribution.

EDIT: For clarity, I understand what your saying Mango. In relation to the rules, one would need to verify that someone is shooting at someone else in order to put the hurt on them. But I'm trying to make the point that common sense should be exercised (sniping on big map is definitely something that is traitorous) and should be kosable. If a rule change is in order then I would like it to be considered that sniping on large maps (whether its shooting across the map just to troll) should be kosable.

 

Because you are killing them on the assumption that they shot at someone and not on anything other than that it could be an area where a player COULD be. It would be the same as assuming someone set off a t trap because they looked at it. I would ask you who they were shooting at and if you couldn't tell me that you knew someone was there it would be RDM.

 

I disagree with the t trap statement. Looking at something isn't the same thing as firing a shot. In one instance, you are simply viewing the environment. In the other situation, you are actively trying to change the environment (kill someone, blow up a barrel, etc) and IT CAN BE PROVEN (I saw you fire that shot, you did try to hurt/damage something). Basically, I cant prove you activated the t trap, but I can prove you shot.

 

But who are they shooting at? Unless you can for sure tell me that they were shooting towards a person, then it's not traitorous.

It is the same as assuming that someone did something traitorous rather than directly witnessing someone do something traitorous. If you just go off of an assumption, basically a guess, then it's RDM.

 

If a player is shooting in the general direction of players it's Traitorous. We know this already, so how can we confirm that this suspicious player was shooting at players? Watch for the tracer rounds shot off from the weapon and follow them, that will give you a general idea of where he shot, as well as his body position and where he is facing. Obviously if he was starring at a ceiling or wall with no one around then it's not KOSable. However, if his tracer rounds and body position is directed to where players are then it's KOSable. You can't really make the assumption that "he's shooting in a high traffic area", just take a quick glance to see if there are players he was shooting close too, and if there were, then that is KOSable. Furthermore, keep an eye on the chat, as he may be KOSing someone, and that is the reason for shooting. If there appears to be no reason for the shooting (no KOS), then it may be wise to kill him at this point, or if you feel that you're unsure, then wait for him to make further traitorous acts; thereby adding to the evidence against him.

To sum it up: You see a player shooting his sniper rifle. You locate where he is shooting. You check to see if there are any players around that area, if there are then KOS him. You must make sure that you have seen him shooting at players, it's not okay to say that he was shooting in a "high traffic area."

In this particular case, I would be very suspicious of player A, and I would be watching the vent (where he's shooting) for any players that may be around that area. If you don't see any players around, then you should not be shooting player A. However, if you do notice players in the vents then you have the right to KOS him as he is now committing a traitorous act by shooting towards players. The goal is to obtain knowledge of him actually shooting towards players, once that knowledge is known, you have the right to KOS. In your particular location, you're unable to see the vents fully, so again you want to listen to chat; if players are calling in chat that they're being snipped at in the vents, then logically player A is shooting at the vents and you have now confirmed there to be players in the vents, at which point you kill player A.
Another thing I would like to note, is the possibility that there could be traitors he is shooting at, so it may be wise to ask him who he is shooting at before you kill him.

 

Thank you for the clarification. I understand what to do now.

 

Honestly, if a player is shooting from an ideal sniper perch (bookshelf of dolls, towers on rooftop, etc) with a sniper rifle, and they're not aimed at the sky/a wall near them, they should be KOSable.

Mango's argument is that since you don't KNOW if they're shooting at an actual player, it's suspicion. However, we currently allow KOS for "T-baiting", which is shooting near a player. In this case, we actually KNOW that the player did not hit any player, and yet it's still considered traitorous, because they are attempting to get other players to shoot them, aka baiting them.

When a player with a sniper rifle is at a sniper perch and firing towards directions players could be at, this then should also be considered to be baiting, since otherwise he has no legitimate reason to be shooting there. The only reason anyone would go to a sniper perch and start sniping towards where other players could be is to either a) shoot them, or b) traitor bait.

That, and otherwise it'd be a logistical nightmare to figure out whether or not he was sniping towards another player in RDM reports, because say they were sniping at a player and missed, then got killed, they could then just claim "oh well no player was actually at that location so I got rdmed"

 

Shooting towards a player is traitor baiting. Nothing else falls under that. Unless a player is for sure shooting at someone, you would be shooting/ calling them out based on assumption/suspicion.

 

Honestly, I think a rule change is in order and it should be made so that sniping on large maps be kosable. Some might argue and say that this is prone to abuse (someone shoots a sniper at a wall and gets rdmed for it, and the rdmer lies and says that person was sniping at someone) but this can occur with any sort of weapon as well. As it stands currently, having to verify that a sniper is indeed shooting towards people gives T's a large advantage (by the time you move into a better position, several innos could be dead).

 

Sure, several innos could be dead, but you could have just, in fact, decided to kill an innocent for not doing anything traitorous. How would you like it if you say, were looking in a direction with no players, but it's apparently a "high traffic area" and you miss click then get shot in the head. Even though, there was no one there, you got shot for no reason.

 

Honestly I would be fine with it if I used a sniper rifle and the shot was placed at a location where players could be. If I was shooting at the ceiling or a nearby wall then I agree that would be RDM. A better question would be how is that to be enforced? If the mod/admin didnt directly witness the action, then the person who shot and killed the other one could just say he was shooting towards players. Anyway, I don't think misclicks should be the sole reason that the rule doesn't get changed. Misclicks happen plenty of times, and traitors can simply argue that the shot was a misclick and have the person slain.

 

The thing is that if the staff member directly witnesses a person killing someone for something that isn't listed in the traitorous acts, then that person would either have to be a traitor or an RDMer. If there is no one there when you see a person shooting they are not, in fact, shooting towards players and you cannot kill them.

 

Mango I agree with your assessment of the rules. Currently, killing someone for sniping without verifying they are indeed sniping at people is RDM. I am advocating a rule change to make it KOSABLE to fire a sniper rifle on large maps (Dolls, Highrise, Lighthouse) from advantageous locations. On smaller maps, 67th way, dust, its very easy to verify if someone is sniping at others because you only have to move a few feet. But on these larger maps, you often have to move across greater distances which takes time and exposes yourself to fire. I think that A. If someone is firing a sniper rifle from B. An advantageous position and C> It could be toward the location of other players, then it should be KOSABLE.