[Against The Rules] Building Above The Nether- A Discussion

They may encourage this behavior, but clearly we cannot with how we have our system currently. If we encouraged this behavior, then claims would never be a safe haven for people. As for the rule itself in relation to the world of MC with how it is clearly defined it's not just claims. Logically if you shouldn't be here, then you're never allowed to be there, and if you find an 'illegal' way to be there, then you'll be reprimanded. Bedrock should never be broken and if it is broken then you're abusing a bug and to label a bug as a feature is poor game design. Now, do I think this could possibly be an exception? With a very well put together argument I believe it's possible however I've yet to be convinced of that. The mojang devs who say "it's ok to use this bug" isn't convincing to me it speaks laziness in all honesty and in the world of game design if a bug becomes a feature then it's a mistake that won't get fixed. Now it's known that bugs have became known to be features, however in those cases they were worked out to logically fit the puzzle whereas in MC bedrock was never worked around to logically fit this puzzle. It's still the unbreakable rock that can be broken. Doesn't make sense to me, and so why should we encourage something that's game-breaking?

 

Because its only game-breaking in the sense that it literally breaks the world, and not even in a way that does anything but localized damage. You are using the slippery slope fallacy, saying if we allow this one thing glitch, then it will only encourage more rule-breaking. I hate to break it you ya, but someone going through blocks in order to build is completely different than someone going through blocks to kill. 90% of people who would use block glitches to get to other peoples homes wouldn't care one bit if they could use those same glitches to get to the top of the nether, and like with the many exceptions or stipulations we have with the TTT rules, adding "You can go to the top of the nether" shouldn't be a problem if the moderators are doing their jobs. Basically, those that would break the rules are going to do it regardless of whether or not we are allowed up in the nether, a place that is only used for building and, if you're feeling lazy, Mushroom gathering.

As to why we should be allowed up there? Well, why not? What is game-breaking about an empty space that literally everyone has equal access to, now that ender pearls go for less than a dollar a pearl? The only thing you can get up there you can't get anywhere else is massive amounts of mushrooms, and with the availability of bonemeal from spawners on our server, that really isn't an issue. Gold farms are easier to build, sure, but they can also be built in the lower parts of the nether, it just takes more resources, and once again create a disadvantage for people who don't have many to begin with, only furthering the wealth of the already wealthy. And with the more gold-farms built, the less effective each one becomes, rendering them just another common resource gatherer in the end, one that makes substantially less money than any villager.

The top of the nether is just a nice space to build. Saying we shouldn't or can't build there because rules are rules is just silly. Rules are in place to protect the server, and barring entry to the top of the nether doesn't protect anything.

 

Just make a community teleport to the top of the nether like you did for the end~ Set a safezone line and you're good. No need to complicate things, why make users block abuse just to reach the top if the Devteam can setup a spot there anyway? Seems pretty silly that this is being argued about.

 

Theirs no real way to even enforce this rule to begin with. Are the mods going to randomly teleport to see if they're up their? Probably not, Just let people up their. (NO PVP SAFE ZONE THOUGH!!!!)

 

I have to second these opinions. Do what Yatty said, make a portal to the top of the nether, so it can't be abused but accessible, or else don't stop players from getting up there.

 

You're wrong. There is a way to moderate this through a plugin. There are at least five plugins that exist that already accomplish this task. They either kill, teleport, kick, jail, and/or warn the player. This is done through an Asynchronous Task which iterates through players online at a set time interval and checks if they're in the nether and if their y-level coordinate is above 128 the plugin takes action.

 

The SMC staff has come to the decision that the top of the nether will cause more issues than needed, and therefore a portal will not be built up there for people to use and furthermore we will punish users for entering that area following block abuse protocol.

This will be noted in our rules in a future date.

 

Would you mind elaborating on the issues the staff discussed of having a portal atop the nether? Thank you.

 

The issues being we would have to run it like we have done with The End which is not possible without ruining the entire area below the top of the nether with claimed block areas. This would make traversing the nether 100% more difficult, and furthermore could ruin the intent of everyone who would want to build up there and that's for building. Now this is even just much worse because if we didnt claim the entire area to allow people to build there then you could be griefed, and people could be spawn killed out of the portal due to PVP which brings me to..

PvP would also be another issue as the nether has no PvP settings other than on all the time which would absolutely hinder people who just want to build up there and that's one of the main reasons people want to build up there, for the flat surface, others for gold farms, and it'd be subject to PvP. In other words, whatever the mojang devs say about it being a feature we believe does not benefit the server and where we are going forward from here. The cons we believe outweigh the pros and this was a unanimous decision among the staff team.

AKA: If the area isnt claimed, your builds are 100% subject to griefing because claiming in the nether would probably be unallowed due to the repercussions below the top of the nether with traversing using bridges. If it is claimed, there's no building and you'll see a completely flat area of bedrock with nothing to do and furthermore the entire area below the top of the nether will be nearly impossible to traverse. Lastly, PvP in the nether is on always and there's no way to prevent yourself from being killed when all you want to do is build and it could make spawn killing that much more prevalent.

 

Isn't there a way to limit claims on the Y though? I know I've seen other servers with claims beneath other claims, or at the very least unclaimed space beneath other claims. Not sure what you mean when you say flat area of bedrock with nothing to do. As to the PVP issue, it's against the rules already to spawn kill. People have claims in the nether. Saying we shouldn't have something because people might break the rules is ridiculous, especially coming from a team that says we shouldn't change a rule even though it might be almost impossible to enforce, Especially when that rule-breaking can already easily happen. For building as a whole, I am sure that people would love to build in that flat area even if they might be attacked. For some, it's even preferred, because it allows them to build complicated structures/tactical designs to combat invader, while giving invaders a battle ground, lending a purpose to /siege

And suppose that we couldn't limit claims on the Y. People already have the ability to make claims in the nether. I find it impossible to believe that there could be such a massive amount of claiming going on above that people would be unable to move about below. It's simply too large. And with the price of ender pearls, there really isn't any excuse.

Overall, this seems like an extremely short-sighted verdict that doesn't at all take into account what that majority of the player base actually wants or cares about. The server is already quickly losing the interest of many players, and making decisions for players about how they want to play will turn even more of them away. The only part of this that would actually effect the server as a whole is that claims might effect the nether below, and as I mentioned above, is easily averted.

On a slightly different note, perhaps open up your discussions with non-moderators, even if its just with active players. I've noticed that, while there are acceptions, moderators and admins seem to be on a similar mind of things, especially when considering the Admins don't really play the game, and are the ones teaching the moderators how things are done/should be done. You guys seem to be under the impression that anything risky is bad, and it's killing the server.

 

In my opinion if they don't want people up there they should implement an automated system that actively prevents players from getting to the top. If there is no system the forums will have witch hunt posts where players report people they dislike that they find using the top and don't report others. Either enforce it automatically or don't disallow it.

 

There's only 1 of 2 ways claims work. We claim everything above and below, or we adjust the dimensions to not include everything above and below. This will affect all claims in the server. If you want the entire bedrock area claimed, and only that, then any claim in the overworld will only claim the surface and anything above or below will be able to be destroyed. I was told we can't set up this type of distinction.

And it'll only happen that much more easily in a PvP 24/7 area.

Now with the claiming of the top of the nether, since we can only change how high and low the claim can go, we could revert back to what it was at first, and that was the entire area would not be claimed and therefore people's buildings height and depth wise are restricted. The nether would then be possible to claim up top. Now we could only claim the area around the portal so that's not destroyed, but we would have to run it like The End where people cannot claim in the nether which seems unfavorable and again this is because of claims taking over height and depth in that area. The nether you say is so big it shouldn't be an issue, which is true, but then what if that issue becomes reality? People will get upset and we can't just say "buy enderpearls" we need to make this fair for everyone.

Which brings me to my next point: if the nether can't be claimed and people just want to build how will you protect your builds from being destroyed? They can't be claimed, and therefore griefing the build is allowed. Your hard work on your structures, your farms, will be subject to griefing without being enforced by us. We draw the line with griefing to include claimed land, anything outside of that we will not enforce and that's how it has been.

If there was an easier way to go about this, we would like to allow for it to be possible, but we dont have the ability to make it possible. Furthermore, what you want may not be the best for the server as a whole. The vocal community should not make up the entirety of the community's thoughts and with what I talked with about the devs this just isn't feasibly possible.

If we were to have a portal up there you would get:

The inability to claim in the nether - This is because if we want to change claims, we need to prevent them from claiming the top and bottom of the entire claimed space. This would affect all claims everywhere, and people may not want that. If you can't claim in the nether, people's builds can be destroyed and it would not be against the rules. Do you suggest an exception for the Nether? Why have people not suggested an exception in The End yet? If it hasn't been suggested for The End then the Nether and The End should follow the same rule set. Furthermore, with this people who claimed in the nether will lose their claims.

PvP 24/7 - We can't turn it off in each world. The PvP system works on day and night. The nether has no cycle, so it's on all the time. Spawn killing would be more prevalent, requiring more resources to cover it, and furthermore people will be killed while building which was something a lot of people were against when PvP 24/7 was a thing in the overworld.

The community portal - It would be the only area in the nether that is claimed.

You're free to vote on this matter, but that's the best case scenario the dev team to my knowledge is able to produce.

 

Here is the easy fix: Let us claim and don't change it. Yes, we run into the potential problem that it interferes with the nether workings. We run into those same problems in the overworld. But nobody is concerned about that, because it's so unlikely. And if we are going by the "The End doesn't have it, so Why shouldthe nether?" Then you should immediately remove claims entirely in the nether, because we don't have them in the end!

And while we are going off things that can be exploited, lets remove all diamonds from the server, because people can use x-ray. Lets remove glass windows, because arrows can be shot through them. Heck, lets remove the End and the Nether entirely, because they don't have that PvP cycle!

The entire argument as to why we can't go to the top of the nether is built on what-ifs and it-coulds.

As to the loudest voices? Right now, we don't seem to have much of any voice. Your player base consists primarily of regulars that frequent the forums. If you are going to remove them from discussion, why even give us a suggestions page?

 

After much deliberation there will be access to the top of the nether with no changes at all in terms QOL. /warp nethertop will be implemented shortly. The area surrounding the warp space will be changed and marked to allow for proper access to the building space. Please let us know of any issues. Thank you for your thoughts during this arduous debate. This is for us as a staff team to see what you, the community, can show us in terms of producing a healthy environment with this new addition to the server and we appreciate everyone's feedback from now and in the future on the matter.

EDIT: The spawn point is also not entirely permanent as of yet. We're trying to minimize possible issues relating to claim space underneath it.