Invalid Report against wink

Name of Staff/Player:

wink​

Steam ID of Staff/Player:

linked​

Your Steam ID:

linked​

Which Server:

West 1​

Which Map:

asdf​

Which Round:

​

Time of Occurence:

​

Reason For Report:

Improper ban.​

Evidence And/Or Witnesses:

Since wink wants to close my appeal and say "pm me if you have any questions" then I PM him and he cuts me off after I raise my points and tells me to take it back to the forums here we go. Lets make this WHOLE thing public.

Here is our latest conversation:
http://pastebin.com/eXfQ1XXf​

 

@wink @Falcor

Let's do this, I want to discuss every single item down to the letter, I do not agree with any aspect of the ban.

 

In short here is the summary of my reaction to his "justification" for banning me.

Point 0: My gameplay is malice towards other users on the server, the main example being RTVing, yea guess what not everyone will like an RTV, no news there.

Point 1: PMing zomb.org Yes I did pm her along with the rest of the server, given the response she gave me I avoided her name on the PM list in future instances. The real interest of me is that the player seems more bothered by 1 or 2 lines in their chatbox as a PM instead of 10-100 messages of an RTV keybind.

Point 2: PMing the whole server / encouring the server to RTV. He references events that happened this morning, I've watched that video back, the server had 31+ people on it, and during the RTV of the two maps, 4 players total expressed disinterest in the map being changed. Last I checked 4 players can't control the whole servers interests, that is why RTVing is a vote. Many people love to bring up events that happened many months ago where I was told to stop encouraging an RTV, the fact is wink was not there, and several others were not there. The events that happened in the past was with @Kyogre and we had 3-5 people who were all rocking the vote, and hitting keybinds, the map probably changed 5+ times one round each time, at that point Kyogre had many people complaining to him (10+) that they did not like this, and Kyogre asked myself and the others to stop RTVing for now as it was bugging the players. I have NEVER been told I could not encourage an RTV nor is it listed on the rules anywhere, and if I'm going to be punished for encouraging an RTV, then I can find hundreds of others who encourage RTVs.

Point 3: History. Yea, I used to be a toxic player. Keyword used to, my last ban for actual negative behaivor was July of last year, since then I have turned a new leaf, I have had NO reports against me, I have had several staff members notice the change in behavior and I have made numerous friends, there used to be times where I would join a server and people would instantly be making loopholing jokes, now when I join its welcome arms. So yea, there may not be a SoL, but maybe you should consider a players actual actions.

Point 4: Trying to accuse all of my karma bans on me killing for any traitorous acts. This morning I was karma banned, this happened because of the following items. An innocent walked past an unid body and I killed them, An innocent kosd a detective and I killed them, An innocent killed another innocent RIGHT in front of me so I killed them, during the previous kill I accidentally shot another player with CROSSFIRE, and since I use a one shot weapon they died and I lost 110 karma instead of 20-50. I DID rdm a detective by mistake, they kosd me, I thought they shot me so I killed them, that was RDM and I would have taken a slay, after I killed the detective another player started shooting at me and I shot them before I died.
So yes, I do kill many people for reasons, but I also don't kill many people, during those previous events, I had 2-3 other people that were GBA that I did not kill because given their actions, I think they were actually clueless to the events, not traitors trying to play it off. The others though were due to my weapon and my reaction time, if I am going to have to stop playing the game so "well" and use a different gun and lower my reaction times, what kind of example does that set?
Not to mention that he talks about me killing my teammates which hurts the team, well this morning I killed 5 traitors, one was shooting at me, one shot a detective, the other 3 were GBA and / or walked by an UNID, those were valid kills, and my TEAM won because of it. I am not trying to play against my team, I am playing to win FOR my team.

So I challenge every single point of winks "justification" for banning me, and I also would like to report the fact that he seems to have a constantly avoidance behavior. I was banned, I message him on steam within like 5 minutes, he says take it to the forums, I post an appeal within 7 MINUTES of getting banned, surely he should have all the evidence available if he just issued a ban, yet it takes him longer to respond, I wonder if he even had anything, I wonder if he just issued a ban based on what he was told and then came up with the evidence later. Then he posts on the appeal, posting my entire ban history of 2+ years instead of keeping it to the relevant bits, rude in my opinion. On his response he says QUOTE "feel free to hit me up here or on steam." I hit him up on steam, I drill my case and what does he do? "

1. 10:39 PM - wink: I have told you. Report me on the forums if youi want to discuss this matter further, I hope you gain a better understanding of our rules at the end of it all.
2. 10:39 PM - wink: Take care!
3. 10:40 PM - wink is now Offline.

"

Now here we are back at the forums again, why can't you just have a proper conversation about this wink, why do you have to constantly avoid talking to me?

 

Being one of the 4 players expressing disinterest on the whole pming and rtving the maps, I think I might say my piece, also because wink wasn't there on the server at the time. It was clear you had no real reason to be changing maps so often, as we only ever got one or two rounds off for 4 map changes which seems not only annoying but pointless. If you really wanted a specific map, maybe you could have indicated that you wanted to rtv into a map you wanted to play. But, clearly this wasn't what you wanted and decided to ride the rtv train for shits and giggles. Also, if everyone "wanted" to rtv these maps then why would everyone choose a map they didn't want to go to? If anything, I would expect to see one rtv, change to a good map, and call it good. Clearly it wasn't reaching any solution to what map we wanted to play. Also, why bother using the pm system when you could just put like 3 lines of chat to everyone before map change so they will see it? I've never witnessed a good case where people rtv train and it actually ends on a good map everyone wants or stops without a staff getting involved.

 

The problem is with random maps coming up, I can't ask for a specific map, I could ask people to vote for innomotel, but then it turns out that it wasnt listed or it locked and my effort would be wasted, of the many maps on the server very few do I RTV, the issue is that I RTV some common maps because I don't like them, the fact is others must not like them as well as I am not giving anyone any reason to RTV other than just getting a bandwagon going, clearly those folks wanted to rtv already but didn't feel like they have the ability, I'm the person uniting the folks who dislike a map together rather than letting them all assume they are alone. So what you see as "no reason" is not for malice, people have accused me of rtving so that I can buy traitor, the fact is I already buy traitor once per map anyways, there is no reason to spam RTV as that means the maps that I do like will get skipped as well, I only request skipping the maps that I dont like. For maps like 67thway or dolls that I dislike but don't hate, I may not even bother or I'll ask people to RTV and we get 1-2 people interested, so I don't push it. In our case we had interest so I kept pushing.

 

Since I am a main party in this, I have something to say.

First; I do not hold a grudge for how you used to be. I don't claim you are loopholing, I talk to you exactly how I would anyone else if they were behaving the same way. I have asked you COUNTLESS times not to PM me about the RTV thing or in general because I don't like it- especially when you are attempting to instigate with me cos of your "1337 sk1llz" and you want to try and rile me up. There has only been one single time that you chose not to include me in the RTV spam and that was today. There's very little reason you and I have to speak in private, so anything said should be just as good in general chat where everyone can see it. I am the exact same way with literally everyone except those I consider close friends, even then I prefer to be messaged on steam. As shown in one of my videos, I am not the only person that got annoyed with you repeatedly PMing them.

Second; you are not the only person that has been banned for multiple karma bans as shown in this appeal https://www.seriousgmod.com/threads/alchemizeds-appeal.22538/. Alchemized's karma ban history in the span of a month is much more severe, but nonetheless the presiding issue is the same and is the reason why karma bans are typically not revoked(besides the fact they are only 1h); you choose your own gameplay. Just because you have a reason to kill someone, doesn't always mean it makes sense. Using common sense instead of simply following the rules black and white could prevent a lot of karma bans for multiple people, not just you. There are multiple users that have high hours and don't have nearly the same issues that you do that also utilize the rules to their fullest extent. How do you think that others are able to establish high-end gameplay yet not receive large amounts of karma bans? Common sense.

Third; wink tried to explain to you multiple times and was very thorough in your appeal. He explained why things were that way and goes to show evidence that I provided him after our conversation on Mount Base. You refuse to accept his answer, which you have the right to do, but the conversation goes stale after he has to explain the same thing three times over. He is not the one that "made up" a rule about banning you for those things, especially the multiple karma ban scenario. He also is not the one that "made up" a rule about abusing the RTV function. You've been warned a small handful of times, at your own confession no less, and are suddenly surprised when you receive the punishment you say you should be getting if you're doing something wrong. A warning signifies that you are doing something wrong and perhaps should spur a change in your gameplay and social interaction via RTV spamming, yet it did not.

Fourth; just as with singing(sometimes)/general harassment/jokes being told or stories being read over voice chat, it only takes 1 person for those things to have to stop. Saying it's better than spamming chat with an RTV bind "10-100" times is honestly ridiculous. It shouldn't take 10+ people for you to stop spamming everyone and to use a bind in chat, especially when you end up using a bind in chat anyways. Just as we apparently don't get to decide whether you bother us or not, YOU don't get to decide whether our opinion doesn't matter especially with so many people asking you to stop. This is not the only instance of you RTVing multiple maps in a row, this is just the only one I chose to get evidence of. Within the last week, I was playing with @Solar and you RTV the map 4 times until we got onto a map you wanted. They asked you to stop, you didn't, and ultimately you were karma banned just like earlier today. I've played with you one or two more times within the week and you still RTV spam, even after I personally ask you to stop and others expressed their disinterest in you bothering them. You consistently ignoring peoples request to be left alone is an issue, even if you don't feel it is such simply because only "3-4 of [them] care".

Just as it has been pointed out to me and other players on the servers, intention of what you are doing is just as important as the act itself. You intend to only allow people to play on maps you like whenever you are present and that itself is a problem. Just because it isn't a loopholing problem doesn't make it not an issue. If you RTV and the community chooses a map and shows no public disinterest in it, there's no need to ask them to keep doing it. The people chose the map and the result shouldn't be dictated by a singular individual when multiple people choose that map in specific.

"No news here" but not everyone should have to deal with playing on only maps you like.

Edit: Also, wink is not avoiding you, he had to wait to reply with my evidence because he was asking my permission to do so- I was busy, so I couldn't respond. Once I had gotten back to him, he had his reply up within 5 minutes.

 

As a poster in the original appeal, Seeing the ban history and Wink's justification and seeing Xpro's actions in game, I hope i may be considered a witness and allowed to post here. My apologies for any misunderstanding i have about posting here.

• As to the appeal itself, I saw the ban history, and I think it is somewhat inappropriate as i think is showed irrelevant stuff. Otherwise, I think Wink justified multiple points well to certain extents. As to Xpro as well, I dont know how appropriate it is posting those PMs.
  
• I have seen Xpro's spamming the RTV before, but I thought it was his disdain for the current map or love for other maps (specifically Temple since he spammed RTV for temple a bit). After seeing Wink's justification and his post about changing maps multiple times, it makes his efforts seem much more "troll-sy" in hindsight. To Xpro's above post, I am sorry but you do push it. I remember I personally have asked you to stop RTVing because you would spam the same message 2-4 times in global after every round. I thought it was just spam just because you didnt like the maps, but it looks like you would have kept going if the map was RTVed. I find it absurd that you attempt to justify that it is OK because you are pming people because global would just be annoying (which makes no sense in my opinion), yet you say you think it is fine that you may ruin 4 other people's game time and only would stop if 10+ people told you to stop and a mod asked you.With Wink's justification, Zomborg's account and you own account, I can look back and say it looks like a troll and i would have personally felt harassed if I was PMed non stop.
• As to the Karma bans and killings in game, Xpro always got a decent amount from what i remember. With all the appropriate portions of his ban history and Wink's justification, It makes sense. I have seen him kill multiple innos at the slightest T act as well, and at times, it has hindered the Team as innos have lost a portion of the team. Sometimes it would work out, but other times, we would just have 2-3 dead innos dead due to the 5 second grace period, GBA, someone defending themselves and etc. If this is some form of toxic behavior or worse, loopholing, I cant say. As wink is admin, he used his discretion for the toxicity rule and the karma bans. This report will decide if his discretion was appropriate. The only problem i have is the lack of evidence in video. I witnessed some of this, but video would have helped with some prime examples of you just doing it for a kill. At the very least though, there should have been a ban for excessive karma bans as Zomborg brought up a good point with Alchemized and 11 bans in 2 months seems excessive and shows a lack of learning from the karma bans.
• This is more speaking to Wink's character. Seeing the PM's that Xpro, It seemed like Xpro was almost attacking winks with a barrage of messages. I just would like to say Winks handled this fairly calmly and professionally (at least thats how i read it), excluding with the hiccup of the ban history but fixed it with an edit (but still needs to be addressed if his/her lead admin deems it was inappropriate). During the ban appeal Xpro made jokes in the Shout box and posted a joke video in the appeal's main post. It seemed facetious in such a serious context. ending your Pms with "So I've got you beat and you response is "take it back to the forums"" and "Alright this'll be fun." does not make a good impression on you.

TL;DR:
initially,I agreed with Xpro that the ban seemed excessive, but with Wink's justification and Xpro's history, it put Xpro's actions in a new light with the RTVing. It seems more sinister than just spamming and would seem like more like trolling. I still am unsure to the extent of how toxic his gameplay style is, but i have seen the points Winks has made with killing innos and such. I do not know if it is toxic or loopholing, but at the least, Xpro might deserve a ban for his multitude of karma bans. As to Winks posting of the ban history, I think it was inappropriate as it showed pretty much everything, and I and probably others saw it as Xpro is attempting to turn over a new leaf . I do believe their lead admin should have a talk about that. With the exception of that, Winks kept their cool for the most part, justified their stance, and stood strong in front of some community opposition, so I believe Winks showed admirable qualities in this banning process. To me Xpro has shown some darker qualities, but it can be understandable as this can be a stressful process.

In the end, I hope I added some insight to the whole banning issue and help out to come to a conclusion. I hope i showed no real bias to either person, and at the end of this, I hope the community is stronger as both members are very active on the site and servers.

Have a good evening.

 

Hey Xpro,

Firstly I want to link this thread to you: https://www.seriousgmod.com/threads/concerning-karma-bans.14551/ Please read it as it explains why we extend these karma bans.
It's explained clearly and thoroughly why Admins have the right to ban for excessive Karma Bans.
Karma Bans in themselves are punishments for gameplay, but when they're excessive it deserves a harsher punishment.
Just like when we globalize RDM and Leave bans, you get to many of them and you are at risk of having those bans be extended and globalized.

As for the RTVing maps you don't like or don't want to play on, that is fine.
But when you are doing this at the beginning of multiple map rotations with excessively mass pming, it's promoting trolling and creating unenjoyable game-time for others on the server.
As many of us know people do not RTV alone, you're obviously correct in that. But many of us also know it only takes a few donators to effectively control the the rtv.
Especially with mass pm's and aggressive attitude pushing for the RTV.
The problem is how you are doing this for multiple map rotations. Just because you may not like a map(s), others may enjoy different style of game play on other maps.
Like I said when you are doing this, you are creating a displeasing and unenjoyable game environment. That is the issue with this.

Regardless if you think previous warnings for this was a then only situation, it was not. When you are warned for borderline trolling and excessive RTVing every map, shows you were warned for similar behavior.
I'm sorry you think that this was not clarified to you in the past. But similar warnings are given out for a multitude of things (ghosting, loopholing, rdm and leave, trolling, toxic gameplay etc)
Warnings for these situations are not a "only during this game session" warning. They're warnings to make you aware how this is distasteful or unacceptable behavior/actions and will be punished for in the future.

Wink was completely fair with this ban, and handled your appeal appropriately.
Wink was not avoiding your discussion. He can only explain his point of view so many ways before it is tiring and repetitive, so him taking the route for you to go to his Lead is completely acceptable.
Wink also did not just blatantly issue this ban. I was personally apart of the discussion before the ban was issued.
After reading your posts, you seem to think the ban was mainly due to the rtving. But this isn't the case.
The ban is 2 weeks due to both your excessive karma bans, and the rtving adding to the toxic gameplay and is why it was longer than a 5 day global.

This report is Invalid due to all stated above.
The ban is justified due to everything stated above.

Thank you for taking the time coming to the forums.
Regards,
Falcor