Completed Report against Pandemic

Name of Staff/Player:

Pandemic​

Steam ID of Staff/Player:

STEAM_0:0:43007553​

Your Steam ID:

STEAM_0:0:1295082​

Which Map:

dolls​

Which Round:

Just before round change​

Time of Occurence:

Appx 12:15ish PM.​

Reason for Report:

This is more of an issue with just a disagreeing of rules and I feel clarification is needed.

I feel I was RDM'd by Z.A.K.T.B. I was shooting with a sniper rifle at a couple of NPC's. It wasn't near any other players.

I filed a report at the end of the round.

After nothing happening, I asked Pandemic what Z.A.K.T.B.'s response with. Instead of sharing the response he simply stated "Valid." To begin- I felt that this was unnecessary. If I did something wrong, it'd be nice to know so I don't do it again in the future. Also, it doesn't allow me the chance at all to explain the situation.

Rather than pushing it further though- I simply sent Pandemic a video of what happened. After which, he said I was T-baiting.

Furthermore, after explaining that this is the interpretation of the rule I have he told me that as an inno that I should not shoot. That it was okay for Z.A.K.T.B. to shoot me because he got "spooked". I do not see any rules that say you are allowed to shoot a player because you are spooked.

He then directed to to read the !motd/!rules.

I stated that I do not see any rules resembling what he mentioned. I do see rules saying you may not shoot near another player. Or that you may not shoot towards another player. As you can see in the video, no players were present in the direction I was shooting.

He did state that T-baiting can be considered if I'm shooting in the vicinity of other players. This is not stated in the rules, and in fact a recent report I made (link) was ruled Valid when I was shooting in front of another player as well.

I'm just asking for clarification on the rule, and posting here per recommendation by Pandemic.

Tagging relevant: @Lemon @Pandemic​

Evidence And/Or Witnesses:

Video of incident:


Conversation:
http://i.imgur.com/elpp4U9.png
http://i.imgur.com/FTFlR7V.png
http://i.imgur.com/LnfCOoD.png​

 

I'll go ahead and tag @Pandemic and @CDriscoll as he is overseeing Pandemic. They will respond at their earliest conveniences. Please be patient!

 

Hi Helix.

Tonight around 12 am you reported Z.A.K.T.B. for killing you. You asked several times for information and after providing the fact with text as well as voice that you were shooting downwards on the map DOLLS where several innocents were below you, you were killed by Z.A.K.T.B. whose response was that he saw you shooting towards innocents. Me and my Trial @Jigat noticed were both present and saw all of the admin chat conversations you sent. Im sorry that you feel what you did was not traitor baiting but the rules clearly state

• Shooting towards players (traitor baiting) is traitorous.

There is no way for Z.A.K.T.B. to know what you were shooting and therefore no way for him to know that you are not shooting or killing for that matter, an innocent. So this is the reason that i did not have him slayed. Z.A.K.T.B. was the one who called it being "spooked" in chat. The video you provided shows you shooting downwards with a rifle form a covered position on one of the higher levels of the map. Some might say a perfect sniping position.

You did not provide the Video until the Map Change which was far after the ruling and the discussion about T-Baiting. Not having this video did not allow me to see where you were shooting. Having the video earlier mightve helped with judgement.

I offered the MOTB and RULES and EXTENDED RULES for clarification per your request about T-Baiting.

In short i am sorry you feel as if i should've resulted in a slay. Ill go ahead and tag my Admin @CDriscoll so that he may take a better look at this. Thank you

 

Why wouldn't this fall under:

Common Sense: In TTT, common sense and logic is huge. You may kill on these grounds, if it implies 100% certainty. This also works for unseen traitorous acts, regardless of the stigma that shrouds this area of the game. You may kill for something you have not seen, only if you have 100% certainty. For example, in 1-way entrance rooms if you hear someone get killed (confirmed only with screams of death or weapons falling on the floor after shots being heard) and you can pinpoint with 100% accuracy which room it happened in, you don't necessarily have to enter the room to find a body.

By your own statement, if there is no way for him to be sure what I'm shooting at- then he should have not killed me. He could place me under suspicion at best; especially considering from the video that I was not shooting towards other players.

 

I was present, and in my playing experience, and Trial Mod training, shooting (especially on a map geared for snipers) with a sniper is generally a traitorous act. I would have done the same thing Z.A.K.T.B. did and shot him. Helix was shooting near another player which is in the rules as a traitorous act. I stand by Pandemic's decision.

 

Also it doesnt help you provide me with the Video Right before the map change far after completing my ruling and checking the damage and shot logs. For futures reference: either provide it on time or wait to report until you have gathered your evidence.

 

Ok, by that video, if I was in ZAKTB's position, I would probably have assumed you were a traitor and killed you. You weren't looking at a wall, or shooting a prop next to you, or anything like that; you were hiding in a sniper spot firing in what would look like the general direction of innocents.

Though this is a huge problem on this server that since shooting is not ALWAYS traitor baiting, we get situations like this. While I disagree with Helix's stance, I agree that since I started playing this server about two weeks ago, it seems like a lot of these rules leave way, way too much to gray area, as well as having some really obnoxious specifics (not shooting a jihad and instead running being GBA, as an example.) While I don't think Helix is in the right here, and I think it was obnoxious to make this a report against Pandemic who is actually a really fair and polite mod in my opinion when this is really a complaint about the rules, I agree that things need to be more clear in the rules.

 

@It's Jeff! Thanks for your input, You were actually there on the server during this.

 

Just a note here- the only reason I posted this is because Pandemic linked me to.

 

I provided you the link to provide your video for another Mod or Admin to look at since you disagreed with the ruling. Not so you could report me. You even said you wanted to just ask another mod. I thought that was apparent. But apparently i was wrong. I'm going to go ahead and wait until @CDriscoll Responds at this point. Thank You.

 

I was also there during this session and Helix was clearly T Baiting. The video clearly proves that. No one can tell who he could be shooting at except the person shoting. It is totaly justifiable to kill Helix in this situation and Pandemic shouldnt be punished. 9/10 people would have killed Helix based on previous interpretations of rules.

 

@HelixSpiral,

Thank you for taking your time to report Pandemic. First off, I'd like to apologize for any inconveniences you may have run into throughout this ordeal, and I'll get this report settled as quickly as possible. In regards to the situation in game, you should not have been killed for traitor baiting if the user was not able to see where your shots were going, or if they were near users at all; it would've been a kill on suspicion if he assumed that the shots were near a user. However, the most prominent issue I noticed in this report was the lack of communication from Pandemic in regards to the situation and the questions you had been asking. Pandemic and I have had some extensive conversations over this, and we've come to a resolution together.

To clear up any final confusion, T baiting does not refer to all shooting, but rather shooting at/near innocent users. Again, thank you for taking your time to report Pandemic, and if you have any questions feel free to message me on Steam or create a forum inbox.

See you around,
CDriscoll