The Forgiveness Concept

After compiling a series of opinions concerning this idea, I have decided to finally release it to the forums, to allow other users to discuss the issue.

For the past few days, I have been raising the point and asking people how they feel about the idea of:
If you are not reported for RDM, and are verbally or textually forgiven by the player that you RDMed, then there should be no consequences. Simply put: If you injured or killed someone by accident, and they say that they forgive you, then you shouldn't be in trouble.

Now, I recognize that this may be looked down upon by Moderators, or anyone of higher power, due to the possibilities of how this could be exploited, but please, keep reading and give me a chance to provide some information.

I know from personal experience, from both sides of this kind of situation, that this is a reoccurring problem across most servers. Said situation is this: A player, usually an Innocent, will unintentionally injure, or even kill, another player (that is an Innocent, Traitor, or even Detective) entirely by accident, and said "RDMer" will suffer a slay, after the accident is recognized, and even after being forgiven by the victim, because any staff on site are forced to take action due to how defined(strict) the rules and "staff-code-of-conduct" are.

Killing on suspicion, such as an Innocent player(Player1) killing another Innocent player(Player2) because (Player1) SUSPECTED(thought) that (Player2) was a Traitor, is not the same thing as ACCIDENTALLY killing someone.
Two common examples of accidentally killing someone would be:

• One player unintentionally injured/killed another player by throwing an Incendiary/Frag/Discombobulation grenade, that was specifically targeted towards a Traitor, because that player stepped too close to the range of the grenade. However, a slay CAN be given in this situation if the player that threw the grenade(s) DID NOT give a verbal, or textual, warning first.
• When firing a weapon, whether the target is an Innocent(for Traitors) or a Traitor(for Innocents/Detectives) one player accidentally steps into the Crossfire, and is injured/killed.

Now, just to clarify, this isn't a suggestion to make Moderators, or anyone of higher power, over-speculate a situation to try to find the true answer. This suggestion for a rule adjustment is simply asking for Moderators to give the regular player-base a little more trust.
If you, a Moderator or anyone of higher power, find an RDM that was not reported, just consult(PM) whoever was RDMed, and ask if they forgave whoever killed them. If they did, then just overlook the situation, it's not that big of a deal. If you take action on it, it may just make players upset. However, if they don't forgive whoever killed them, then please, be my guest and take action and slay those whoever deserve it.

Textually/Textual: Written in text, or in in a textual manner. Example: Speaking over a chat box.

 

Moderators don't have the power to give players or even regular players a bit more leeway for these kinds of situations. That is the core issue. I personally believe moderators should be allowed to make these kinds of decisions, as this prevents things from going out of hand and allows players to sort things out themselves as opposed to have it sent to a 3rd party (staff) and making them liable for the decision. But on the flip side, I also understand the administrative decision to not allow this.

We also have a total of 40 moderator slots, and if this was allowed it would create many issues with conformity in terms of punishment. "Why did this guy not get slayed, he just rdmed me and I forgave that other guy", and can create a toxic environment. The current system although not ideal, is the best we have at the moment. It's a blank and strict approach that applies to everyone. This gives the players a sense of "an eye for an eye" if you will.

 

Administrators and above already have this power to not slay if they feel it is not necessary or if the player forgives them and the admin or above sees fit to not slay the player. It would also be a problem because there are a lot of rdm's that aren't reported and 70% of the time, when I pm a player, I will not get a response. This would mean that I would have to wait for a response that would most likely never come, leaving the rdm'd player upset that their killer was not slain and making the staff upset because they can't do anything about the rdmer. This is also not really a problem with us trusting the community rather we don't want to give the moderators this type of discretion as they're job is to follow the motd and to get an admins permission to do anything different.

 

The two examples that you gave are already reasons no slays will be issued; only difference being that if there's no warning there WILL be a slay. Crossfire is not RDM.

The only accidental RDM that may be forgiven is Goomba stomps because it's usually something where a person doesn't intend to drop on someone when all other kinds of RDM are controllable.

Also, it's hard to track goomba stomps real time; players usually don't get killed for stomping someone. If someone's accidental RDM is witnessed, and someone kills them for it, even if they are forgiven, they just opened a window for someone to loses karma because of their mistakes. I could see the second point used as an exploit for two friends to RDM each other, claim "accidental" with forgiveness and get good players karma banned.

My final point is that accidental RDM looks exactly the same as regular RDM in the logs; meaning it'd be word vs word whether it was accidental or not. As I've said before, "Accidental RDM is still RDM."

Follow the rules and you'll be fine. Sure, accidental RDM happens, but when I've done it in the past, I've accepted the deserved slay; I ruined someones round.

 

The problem with grenades is that it takes 2 years for them to explode and a whole new group of people could have moved within range by the time they do. that's why throwing them at all is KOSable. Even if someone gives a warning, it would have to be a specific enough location that the traitors would also know where it is being thrown and therefore move out of the range

 

+1

 

With a hopefully soon-coming update to the RDM manager, a victim will have the option to see the reported player's response and decide whether to forgive the RDM or not automatically.

Until then, mods really don't have authority to forgive an RDM unless they have permission from an admin.

 

It isn't the person that was RDM'd that really should decide, slaying players (in my opinion) accomplishes two things
-Giving the RDM'd player some kind of closure.
-Punishing players who RDM'd to hopefully prevent them from making the same mistake in the future.
Because of that 2nd point, is why I don't think RDM should just be forgiven, if we enforce it in the servers, eventually less and less RDM will happen overall as people learn from past mistakes.
the only exception is goomba stomping because 99.9% of the time, goomba stomping is an accident.

 

I also think that keeping it pretty even across the board prevents the perception of biased staff. Player A gets forgiven by their friend for RDM and Player B gets slain by someone because they're not friends. I wouldn't want to be on a server that lets players choose what is and isn't RDM.

I just feel like the forgiveness concept would bring about plenty of loophole trolling because players are friends.

 

Although I fully understand everyone's opinion on the topic, I'm not asking for admins to let players decide whether other are slain for all cases of RDM. Players are usually spiteful after being RDM'd in general, especially if they were RDM'd during their T-round.
@Anarchist I totally know where your point of view is coming from, but should someone be punished for something they didn't intend to happen at all? For example, rather recently, I was "RDM'd" by someone who gave several warnings that they were going to kill themselves(to go make vegetable soup), but jokingly, I stood right beside them after they gave even more warnings that he had thrown a grenade to kill himself with. Later, said player was slain for "RDMing", even though it was mostly my fault that I was killed. I never reported them either, however, the staff on site at the time found it necessary to slay the other player.

 

There are other ways to kill yourself that do not involve endangering other players.

 

I was slain by kynwall a while back for killing a guy on suspicion. He forgave me via mic and never reported me, just wondered why and I told him. The mod then slayed me a little while later even though it was clear the player forgave me, and kynwall even said, "If you talked it over !p chat, I wouldn't have even known and you wouldn't have been slayed, but since you discussed it over public means, I can still slay you," (obviously paraphrased to get the jest). True, but lesbihonest, a dickish move. Unless the player RDMed was AFK and the mod or another player saw it happen and knows the player cannot make a report due to them being AFK, I can see that being a case where a report isn't needed. However if a player forgives another player for RDM and doesn't make a report, it shouldn't be slayable.

 

I think the people that need this forgiveness concept the most are the people that need to learn how to play. Killing someone because they're suspicious is against the rules, regardless.

Learn to play the game by the rules and reduce your slays to virtually zero.

 

We're not saying it's not against the rules, just for the staff to ignore it if the player accepts what has been done, which usually doesn't happen either way
After all, what's the use of reports if Mods still slay regardless?

P.S. Sorry for the double use of regardless in the quote and in my comment.

 

The use of the reporting system is to eliminate any ambiguity that may occur due to the damage system. Get better at the game or get slain. It's pretty simple.

Hell, what's the point of rules if we can let something slide one time and not the next?

 

The point of my story is that kynwall wouldn't have known or done anything about it if I didn't tell the player why I killed him in public chat. Mods can't do anything without a report unless they are a witness to the supposed RDM taking place. This is what we are talking about on this thread, not getting better at the game.

 

Its not hard to figure out when someone RDMs in the damage log. However, you've been around so long, I'm sure you understand the ins and outs better than me.

Give me an example of accidental RDM that's not entirely RDM as stated in the rules. What's something you want to be forgiven.

Also, your killing on suspicion deserved a slay, regardless of whether you gave forgiveness via private or public chat.

 

RDM is RDM, no doubt about that. I'll give some examples of times when some can be forgiven and there's no need for a slay:

1. Shot a barrel and no one was around then a guy turns a corner and gets hit. He forgives you
2. You're swinging around a prop and it damages someone. He forgives you
3. You accidentally fall on someones head and he takes Goomba damage. He forgives you

For #3, I was getting down from an area and didn't see a guy below me. It hit him for 2 damage. I was slain next round. The guy I hit (1) didn't even notice, (2) didn't report it and (3) once he saw I was being slain and the reasoning behind it, said he forgave the mistake and told the mod to lift the slay. The mod didn't.

 

1) You don't have to shoot the barrels. You know the risks you take when you shoot a barrel.

2) You don't have to swing around props. It's not even part of the objective. You should be held responsible in that case because you know the risks at hand.

3) This has always been the case for golmba's. It's because a lot of the time it is an accident due to faulty Gmod ladders or possibly walking under someone right when they jump down somewhere. You cannot determine when you fall that someone else is going to walk under you or even if the ladder will let you climb all the way up.

You see how the first two are something not objective related that doesn't have to be done to help win either way? And you see how the third one is something where a player could be minding their own business, playing the objective, and all of a sudden get screwed over by Gmod or an unexpected person walking under them at the worst timing?

The first two are purposeful acts and not accidents. 1) intended to shoot the barrel. 2) intended to fling around the prop. 3) did not mean to fall on someone's head.

Please, actually state a different case of accidental RDM that is actually an accident. No one or game glitch made you shoot barrels or fling props.

 

k.
Also, I was stating instances where the player who was RDMed be more willing to forgive